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Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a brand new episode of the front end happier podcast. This will be part two of us recording live at render ATL. It's been an amazing conference we are on day two last night went and did some partying now saw a bunch of talks on this episode too. Yes, it's Jem and I as panelists, because we're both at render ATL, we've invited Taylor dessen to join us again,

Taylor Desseyn
I don't think he's really invited. I think I forced myself and you know what, you're welcome.

Ryan Burgess
Because if you know, in part one, we might have even given you some shot did I appreciate that. And you did such a great job introducing us as an emcee that's like, Yeah, this is great. We can do our fast takes on day two and how it's been tailored. Before we dive in, you want to give a brief introduction of who you are, what you do, and what your favorite happier beverages so

Taylor Desseyn
um, so I'm gonna start with a favorite Happy Hour beverage. So I I've so originally was gin gin soda. I've kind of become a vodka guy now. So you know, my drink is now I think, I think my grandmother orders it when she goes out. It's a vodka, grapefruit juice and lime vodka soda, grapefruit juice. It's very delicious. It's very light. And grapefruit juice has a lot of health things I liked, I think. I think it's what my doctor told me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, hydrogen is good for the skin. So anyways, that is my favorite Happy Hour drink. Also, I feel like a kid because of for those of you who are listening to this, in the future, my feet, the way I'm sitting on the bed is my feet are off the floor. So I feel like a toy like like a six year old, which is whatever. Anyways, my name is Taylor desam. Believe it or not, I'm a recruiter, I somehow finagle my way into the engineering ecosystem, and I'm very thankful for it. I work for an agency called vaco. We're a billion dollar consulting staffing company, we do a lot of things within the day, we help people find jobs and help ease the hiring process for companies individuals. And then my role specifically is I just build community and create content and try to communicate with people in the IT space through content. So yeah,

Ryan Burgess
and you do a great job with content. I feel like it's continuing to get better and better to like, I'm really enjoying I'm not much on tick tock and like so I don't have a lot. I

Taylor Desseyn
really like when you I really like when you like my stuff, because you like I can tell when you hop on. Yes, it's like two or three likes at one time. And then it's like, I don't hear from you

Ryan Burgess
because I don't use it that often. But you should use it more. But it's funny when I jump on and do watch I don't follow a lot of people and so you're popping up the most and every one of them I'm like yeah, this is information, gold. So if you are on Tik Tok, please go follow Taylor. It's really just great content to understand from a recruiting standpoint, but it's great for people applying to jobs it's for, it's great for managers to who are hiring, you just cover a lot of great tips really quickly. And I actually am a big fan of the short form content because of that where I'm like, Yeah, I don't have a lot of time to go sit like much a 30 minute talk, but these bite sized snippets are amazing and so yeah, please go follow Taylor. It's really good. Thanks, Ryan. Appreciate

Taylor Desseyn
it. I'll cut you a check later. Right on. Jam you should be on Tik Tok. I would love that waste my time. I seriously I waste my time all the time on tick tock parties last night we're pretty cool.

Ryan Burgess
They were cool.

Taylor Desseyn
I you know what I told my wife before I left I said wife I said I said this is kind of like the Coachella for nerds. Like I feel like it like I know South by it's like it's like a nerd South by like true nerd. Because South by you get actors and actresses and you know everybody you get everybody there. This is like and I think Justin Sam has done a great job in his team kind of building this up as a very obviously tech centric but I'm just kind of curious what your thoughts are because you guys live out west, right? Like you guys are a little bit more kind of in that space. I'm not but that's what I kind of think it is

Jem Young
Coachella for nerds Coachella for nerds. So

Ryan Burgess
I thought Yeah, I mean, I do think that they've they've done a really good job that building like, not only just like, hey, we're just listening to talks, there's we talked about this in the first episode of there's a lot of community to it. Right. And I think that not only that, like the parties were really thoughtful. They were a lot of fun. They're bringing people together but also experiencing Atlanta right like it wasn't just like, hey, let's go to the hotel bar and like hey, there's you know, a happy hour it's like no yeah, there's a lot of that but it's at a great space. They've been really thoughtful that like we were on like a rooftop last night I was lots of really great music. There was mini golf there was like arcades there was all these different like it was really cool.

Taylor Desseyn
Like Like there was adult acting like 13 year olds last night. Yeah. Yeah, in a good way anywhere for the record. Yeah, but like skee ball like he had like, you had like, grown men and women like playing skee ball and putt putt and just like enjoying it, and I don't know, it was a vibe for sure.

Jem Young
Yeah, they rented it did a great job. It wasn't just the conferences. Then the the talks and things like that it was like even the after party stuff was curated, and then render coordinated with the city of Atlanta to make ATL tech week. So it wasn't just like this conference. It's like other parts like accelerators and incubators and tech companies that are all involved in this overall process. So yeah, I like they had like coordinated after hours events versus most conference. It's like, oh, yeah, we might go to the bar down there. But like, now there's a thing. And it was like, it wasn't just like, oh, show up here. And we'll do it. It was like everything was branded like render HTML. And then you're just had this giant party full of people. It looks like every other party, but it turns out everybody that works in tech, everybody's, like, we're just nerding out about React, and like all these other dumb stuff over drinks, and it's like, fantastic, because I've never been anything like that.

Taylor Desseyn
Well, I want to give a shout out to y'all with Netflix. Shoutouts Ryan for the invite. Appreciate it. But, you know, I want to give you all a shout out to enter Wix had a great developer dinner to, you know, a few of your friends went there. But you know, you guys picked a great spot downtown and walking distance, very thoughtful. People didn't have to Uber, it was a beautiful spot, lot of natural sunlight. It wasn't packed, you guys did a great job of like, keeping it kept. So it was intentional. Like I didn't feel overwhelmed as an introvert who's just running on pure caffeine and fumes at this point. Like, I didn't feel overwhelmed. And so shout out to y'all. And I think there's a lot of thoughtfulness around the parties across the city.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. And so that party that Netflix said it was Yeah, it wasn't really part of the conference, right? It was, let's get a group of people and like, invite them. And so it was invite only in just getting a group of people together. Part of it being invite only to so it's not as massive, it's like just this like, secondary thing. And we've done this many times throughout various conferences. And I felt like they always always end up being really great events, because they are very casual, but you get that time to talk with people. And I think that was a great way to start the night too. Because, you know, going to those big events like it was awesome. I had a lot of fun. But I had more conversations at the casual setting versus the mini golfing and the drinks and you know, loud music and stuff. Very great different vibe, but it was really really good. Another thing I want to call about the rooftop party to do you recognize that the drinks were all render I was always Yeah, laid render. That was so cool. Those are like little little touches that like I really appreciated like just someone put that thought into it was, hey, let's have a frosty drink. That's called render I can't even remember it's called like

Taylor Desseyn
Justin Samuels. Avatar on Twitter's thug debugger, and that was drink.

Ryan Burgess
Oh, that's pretty cool. Love. That's awesome. Like, that's awesome. I didn't catch that one. That's pretty cool.

Taylor Desseyn
Um, let me ask you this. And I'm gonna I'm gonna put it back on y'all. Because I think it's funny. All three of us are podcast hosts, which is hilarious. So let me ask you all this agenda. I'm gonna start with you. Why do you think companies should be thoughtful in throwing these kinds of limited parties? Not when I say limited. I just meant like, invite only parties from a recruiting and branding perspective. Why is it so important? Your thoughts?

Jem Young
I mean, that's why companies are here. That's why they spend a lot of money they fly their teams, they get their boots together is to connect with people. So why not like, funnel down that connection into this place where you can actually talk in an environment where, you know, you're not getting like, oh, yeah, I want to learn about your culture or something like that from people that maybe aren't quite the right fit. And it's good to connect with those people too. But it's like, well, let's zero and let's target those people. Let's have this personal connection. And also like you get a feel for the culture. And like, in a way that's not in a super Republican.

Taylor Desseyn
I mean, I don't work for Netflix, but the culture last night was good enough where I'd want to work for Netflix.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, no, I think, to me that I've always appreciated those for exactly that it is networking, I feel like I have likely made hires from those dinners, I should probably think back on it. And having people just that time with them to talk through different things answer their questions, because like, not only as a manager, I'm trying to hire people. But that candidate on the other side is also trying to learn like do I want to work with these people do is this the right place. And so I think gives that opportunity to to just have those conversations

Taylor Desseyn
well, and I know when, you know, when I was scaling my team locally and in our Nashville office, we would always the final interview would be getting that person out to a happy hour or lunch. Because I really feel like you can truly get to know that person when they're not in a office setting. So I think it's just a great way to kind of break down those professional barriers, quote, unquote, and and allow those people to see who you really are. And you can see who they are. Because I'll tell you this, there's been a few lunches and coffee hours that person goes off the rails and we didn't have that. And of HIO

Jem Young
Yeah, people let their guard down. Yeah, that's what you want. 100 Maybe sometimes always a good thing. Yeah, exactly.

Taylor Desseyn
Sometimes it's too much guard down.

Ryan Burgess
So talks. What were you all excited about for talks today?

Taylor Desseyn
Um, well, I mean, I was locked in on stage three. Yeah. So I mean, I think, you know, I'm trying to think of like some of the talks. So I know James quick, my guy. You know, I caught him at the very end of his branding and the importance of content creation. You know, James has held a lot of positions at a lot of big companies, Microsoft FedEx playing at scale, you know, and Okta and, you know, he went on his own, and he's, he's doing very well. And so that was a great talk. And then, you know, I don't know, to be honest with you all, like, my brain is mush. I can't really think of anything at the moment. So you guys. I mean, it's like, it's what I think I emceed. I think maybe like 25 talks or something

Jem Young
like that. So she's and you gave her talk to?

Taylor Desseyn
Yeah, yeah. With Kelly Vaughn. That was a lot of fun on hiring. So yeah, how'd that go? I mean, it was great. We, I mean, Kelly, you know, just like you all. And that's why I'm so partial to, you know, you two and Kelly and these engineering leaders who treat people like human beings and our intention when it comes to hiring because I think, you know, on my side, I see so many engineering majors that just don't get it an engineering leaders, they just don't understand it, and how to treat people like human beings. And so Kelly, and I've been texting a lot. And Kelly was like, you know, we should talk together about ripping hiring managers apart. Because she is one, and I see it. And so it was really good. But honestly, our entire like, I mean, it was a packed, it was a relatively packed house for late in the afternoon, we actually pivoted more towards job seekers, which was interesting. And we and the response was overwhelming. And I think the one thing we continue to I continually hear and I know Kelly does as well, is that there needs to be more authenticity from engineering leaders about how to navigate everything, because I think the the hiring space, the staffing world, too, is just kind of this smoke and mirrors and everything's not everything's great when actually it isn't. And I think and I think the the leaders that are out here trying to be better need to be more vocal. And that's why I really like those talks and really like what you guys are doing.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. Jeff, what did you What was your favorite talks that you saw today? I know, you know, we've obviously been walking around doing networking and things like that, too. But I know both of us caught a few talks throughout the day.

Jem Young
Yeah, I spent a few hours at the booth. today and yesterday. It was good today. Today was a little bit harder, because I love render, but the music goes on and on and on and on. And it turns out they're long days. They're long days.

Taylor Desseyn
Like we just we just got here. We're recording your all's hotel room at six o'clock. Like we didn't get back

Jem Young
until six. Yeah. And like last night, the parties parties are great. But it turns out when there's loud music, you're yelling the whole time and you don't realize it because we're all talking too loud. I'm like, you're like, oh, Jim Ryan. Hey, we love the podcast. And we're like, Oh, that's awesome. Connect and like we're but we're like yelling the whole time. You don't realize it. We woke up this morning. I'm like, Oh, my throat hurts so much. But still go down to work the booth because I love connecting people. Probably one of my favorite parts. Good answer, Jim. But I did happen to catch Shawn day person who actually works at Netflix, but I've never met the or never met her before. Until she had a packed house like dude, I saw pictures

Taylor Desseyn
is not

Jem Young
usually on the floor with next Orion. Yeah, it was. It was a good talk. It was on React and suspense. But she just laid it out really clearly. I'm like, even a lowly engineering engineering manager like myself, I understood what was going on. So that was great.

Ryan Burgess
I think I said this even in our first episode, part one on render, it was that knew that she'd be talking today. And I'd seen the talk. And but I'd really appreciate her ability to leverage actual, like relatable things to a technical topic. And she does such a good job of that where you're like, Oh, that makes a ton of sense, like thank you for using an analogy that really ties it together that anybody in that room could understand. And I think that to me was has been a really powerful tool that she's been able to leverage time and time again, I see her do it on a daily basis, like even having conversations with our team. She does that. And so sir, standing up on stage doing that is really comes through,

Taylor Desseyn
I think it's a lost skill set. Right? I mean, you know, I know you all see the ton from a hiring perspective and you're in it right, your engineering majors, you're in it. I sit on my end, because I'm not super technical. Like I'm definitely I feel I'm way more technical than most recruiters, but I'm still not, you know, opening up Visual Studio or whatever. You're using code, right? I think Visual Studio is dotnet. In that Yeah. See, that's what I'm saying. That's what I know. Better IDE just added

Ryan Burgess
me and I still use VS

Jem Young
code. vs. Code VS code for Visual Studio. Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Desseyn
Oh, nevermind. I'm getting schooled. You're good. We're, I digress here. People need to figure out how to communicate. In layman's terms. Yeah. I feel like people, when they're insecure, and they don't know what's going on, they try to hide behind buzzwords. And, you know, I kind of gone really heavily in storytelling and content and branding, just with my journey and every industry is plagued by buzzwords and jargon. And, you know, my mom loves her to death. Karen, if you ever listen to this, she's 62 years old, and she helps scale my dad's business on Instagram is crazy to 3000 followers on Instagram, posting one to two times a day as my dad's restaurant. And but so we talked about content a lot. She's kind of curious, like, she sees what I'm doing. And, and when I try to get technical with her, she does understand, right? And it's made me a better speaker and a better communicator. And I think that's how everybody needs to approach mostly everything. If you cannot communicate to your 62 year old mom or dad, then you don't know it well enough, in my mind, that maybe a little bit of heartache across the board.

Ryan Burgess
I think you're right, in the sense that I think people probably do know it, like when they're super deep technical, but I think sometimes too, is it's it's kind of gatekeeping in a sense to right where it's like, I don't think they're necessarily doing it on purpose. But that can be really hard. It's a barrier. Like, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to sit in and on a talk like Taylor, you're like, I'm not super technical, but I don't really know too much of vs. Code, Visual Studio. That's okay. You know, like, you should be able to sit in and on someone's talk and be like, Oh, that's interesting, or take away something and like, be able to be like, yeah, I really liked what they're doing there. Do I know that deep technical No, but like, I'm able to understand those concepts. Another one. I think that was a great talk that right near in the end of the day was Sarah Dresner is talk. And she's obviously been an amazing, she's amazing speaker for years. On years. I've seen her speak, and always love seeing her speak. But I learned a ton from her talk on Angular. I have not used Angular probably since two songs, a

Taylor Desseyn
ton of tweets about people. And the consensus was I didn't know Angular basically was doing what?

Jem Young
Version 14? Yeah. Which is incredible.

Ryan Burgess
I don't remember the last version that I was on. It was like, one, two or three. Yes, yeah. Yeah, whatever. I

Taylor Desseyn
remember recruiting a lot. We kind of, I remember recruiting during the pandemic on like, I had to ask people to versus one, because it was a huge TypeScript shift. Yeah. Was that right? Am I right?

Jem Young
It shifts like,

Taylor Desseyn
well, he adopted TypeScript or.js. I know that. But I thought the big transition was it incorporated TypeScript.

Jem Young
Maybe I've not plugged into in

Ryan Burgess
two or two or four or something, there was a pretty big drastic change. Because I kept asking

Taylor Desseyn
engineers, it's like, why why is TypeScript such a big deal?

Jem Young
That's a different episode.

Ryan Burgess
That's different. That's a different thing. But yes, she did a great job, like just highlighting all the things that have changed and makes it very approachable. And I think that's the takeaway there, too. And maybe on that topic, like, Taylor, you were talking earlier about this, too, is that how can conferences be more approachable for people? Right, like, because I think that, you know, we all see it on Twitter to have like, people have FOMO for not being at the conference. And I don't think I've ever realized too is like, sometimes people are maybe a bit nervous to go to a conference or like, especially the size of this one. Yeah. And I mean, this one is a big 118 100 is the last number I heard. Wow, that's a pretty big one big size. Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Desseyn
I mean, listen, just show up. I mean, literally, like, you know, it's like Jim was just saying, like, you know, that rooftop everybody's in tech. I mean, literally, like, I don't know about you all, but like, so I moved to Nashville for music. So I was in the music scene. And I, you know, who you playing with? Who touring with? Where do you play last night, right? Like that. That was what I was in. Now, I hang out with a little bit of musician friends that still have left, I have no idea what I'm gonna talk about to them. I'm like, how's life? Right? But I get around you all. And we can talk about TypeScript or VS code. And while I'm joking, I think there's a lot of validity in that because and I think I think if you're sitting at home listening to this, and you're like, render nice renders, it renders just seems big. Render seems kind of like daunting. Everyone's there. These big names are there. Do I deserve to be there? You do? Because I will tell you this. I talked with one gentleman, he drove down from Tennessee. Today, that's about a four hour drive. He drove down today just to be here, because he was in college. He's a major in finance. And he said, I hate finance. And I'm trying to do something else. And so he just showed up. And I think that has a lot of just symbolism for networking and just being at places, right, it's just showing up and being intentional.

Jem Young
Yeah. The thing about competence is like you get what you, you get out what you put in true, and you can't just show up and be like, Well, I went to the conference.

Taylor Desseyn
That's true. I mean, nothing. Yeah, we stayed in my room the whole time. How come I go to meetings?

Jem Young
That's how you see the competition. I was like, oh, you know, I'm an introvert. I really want to talk to people, etc. And I go to conference, and then I go back, and I was like, yeah, there's an OK, conference. I saw some talks. You know, maybe I learned something. Maybe Maybe I was inspired. But this conference, it's like, oh, wait, I think I know you from Twitter, right? And then like, you make friends. I was hanging out in the elevator, you get up to the rooftop. And like this group of three people that's like, how do you all know each other? You're all like, very wildly different personalities. And they're like, We met at the conference. And I was like, How did you meet? They're like, Oh, we were on a talk. We were in a in a watching a talk together. And like now we're all friends. We're all pretty serious. And it's just like, I love that. I don't have to do that though. But if you're walking through, you know, getting the swag from the vendors, you know, give yourself keep to yourself being quiet. That's cool like you, do you but when you leave, you're gonna be like, Okay, that was okay. But if you make some friends make some connections, especially because tech is such a small community, it really, it's really small like you, you'll get so much more out of it. But you have to put yourself out there a little bit. And I know that's hard for a lot of engineers, you know, we'd like to hide in our hole, but you have to this stuff's really important.

Ryan Burgess
I like what Taylor did actually on stage.

Taylor Desseyn
I was I was about to see you have a story today. So as soon as you say this, and then yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
like even I've seen you do this a few times as you've been emceeing but encouraging people to just say hi to each other, like lean to your right, say, hi, whoever you are, lean to your left, I grew up Southern Baptists. And they always think it's a bad idea. In the sense, it's just like even having an emcee like yourself, just kind of forcing people to do that. Because like, it might be awkward and weird for people to just do that on their own. But when you have the person up on stage, or waiting, you know, three or four minutes for the speaker to show up. And having an emcee, just kind of suggesting that like, that doesn't take a lot, and it just kind of opens that door. So I think that was a really powerful. I like that you did that. And then today,

Taylor Desseyn
it was really cool. So Tracy, I think it's Tracy King. She moved from New York back to DC. And she Yeah, Tracy king. And I did that exercise. And Lily, the girl sitting next to her lives in DC. And they're now like, going to hang out like so cool. And I was just like, that's why we do it. So yeah, that's that's again, but that's all it takes, like just asking, just asking. I mean, even to meet you guys, right. Like, I think I just I don't know how we got connected. I think it just slid in your DMS where I was like, hey, I really liked what you post on LinkedIn would you be down to do a podcast together and then here we are three dudes podcast.

Ryan Burgess
And, and we we've worked together a lot on things on we've been on you've been on our podcast, or we've been on your podcast.

Taylor Desseyn
Well, you guys have been tremendous, tremendous to just for me to learn just about hiring because I only see one piece of the puzzle and I don't get to work with a lot of Fang companies really none. And so it's just a different ecosystem. And really learning from y'all has been extremely helpful.

Ryan Burgess
That's a good that's great. And that's like exactly what we want is like below share that knowledge brainstorm together and stuff. But yeah, I was gonna say that we've met in person yesterday was like the first time actually meeting in person for

Jem Young
so many months. Yeah. It was like I know you. Exactly. Yeah. So

Taylor Desseyn
let's talk about that for a second. Let's talk about the power power of of networking on social media.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I mean, it goes on thinks he's already met me before. I feel like I know that with a lot of people I mentioned on our first episode that so meaning Taylor Poindexter first time but it felt like we know each other like really well. It's we don't like we've I think I have talked to her I think I mentioned like on a video call a few years ago. But then also just it's mainly been through Twitter and like knowing her as a person, and you just kind of connected already, which is really

Taylor Desseyn
she does such a great job talking about bourbon and like her passions and like, what cocktail she's making. So like, like, I haven't had been able chance to sit down with Taylor. But like, I really truly feel like I know Taylor. Yeah. Because of how much she puts out online. And I just think it's so important. Yeah,

Jem Young
who were who do we meet today? First, I met we met Chris courier. Never Yeah, CSS tricks. code pen. Never never met him before.

Ryan Burgess
I met him a few times in person, but that's a good example. Yeah, he's

Jem Young
just like vibe. And Rachel neighbors never met them before you they are hilarious. Like one of the funniest people. I've met all very, very long time. And it's like, I feel like I know you sort of and like Twitter,

Taylor Desseyn
but it takes down that like, first weird. So what do you do? Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
you kind of know each other.

Taylor Desseyn
Like with you guys. Okay, we I haven't met you in person. It's like, Yo, what's up? Dude, this podcast together?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, it's that's a good point is I think it does lower that barrier a bit. But speaking of the barriers to like we'd mentioned, okay, yes. Like, it's hard for some people to come or do that. I wonder another barrier that often is like, it does cost money, like a ticket cost money does. You can get ways to have your ticket paid for like if you're a speaker, or if your company sponsors the event. Usually you get tickets out of that. And there's there's ways in which to do that. But there's also things where that might be a barrier for anyone like it's not, it's not they're not cheap. Like, it's not like it's like a $10 ticket to get in. But I also look at it as my advice, I guess, for people listening, if you're having gone to conferences or wanting to go and you're not really wanting to spend that money, because I do understand that and you're like, I don't want to give a talk. That's okay, too, is ask your companies like I think that companies do have budgets often for learning for buying some books or paying for courses. Ask ask your manager, like get understanding, like, can I go to this conference? I see. Here's why it's an important one that I could learn and meet and interact with people. I think it's a really important factor for people to go to conferences because you get that energy. I think we mentioned that on the first part is that you get a lot of energy and learn a lot and I think it is valid But for companies, so I hope companies are paying for you to go to conferences, but if they're not asked, and I've also noticed a lot of conferences even give like a little white page of like, send this Render,

Taylor Desseyn
Render render has on their on their web page. Like,

Ryan Burgess
here's why you want to go to this console and my

Taylor Desseyn
web page. Website is webpage fine. I think it's fine. Okay. I just found it really old when I said web pages because when my mom, I mean,

Ryan Burgess
that's like that's dating you. But that means like, we knew what you're talking about there. Again, it's like, let's not get hung up on like acronyms and terms and stuff. It's like we knew what you're talking about matters.

Taylor Desseyn
Now. I think it's important. I mean, and you're probably like, and ask your friends, right? Or ask people on Twitter. I mean, I think it's a great way to network to like, hey, which conferences I go to? Yeah, right. I mean, you know, if you're in the southeast, I'd recommend render, but like, you know, you guys were just react with on our West, right, that looked amazing. It was fun. And so you don't always, you know, I had one guy messaged me, the other day goes, Hey, I'm up in Boston. Like, I really want to get involved. You know, do you know anybody started tweeting today, and I haven't gotten to it yet. But like, I got kind of a handful of meetups or conferences happening. So you know, do your research. And you don't even have to travel that far, if you don't want to.

Ryan Burgess
And most cities have meetups to where that is a very low bar, like, typically doesn't cost money. I think sometimes they charge like, you know, $5 or $10, just to make sure that they have people show usually recruit or sponsor the food. Oh, that's always good to free food. For us a pizza.

Jem Young
The easiest way to get in the conference is to speak. But I know that's not for everybody. Sure, yeah. Volunteer. That's a great way to go to conferences for free. It's just like, volunteer, do do your time at the booth or whatever, and then go go see some talks. Yeah, there's a way.

Ryan Burgess
That's a great point, Jim, I often forget that is like, yeah, there's a lot of volunteers that are helping, and you obviously get a conference ticket for going until it's a great option.

Taylor Desseyn
And you're forced to network. That's what I love about volunteering, is it is a forced networking time, you're going to wake up early to volunteer. And I hate to say the word trauma bonding, I don't use that word lightly. Because I, but like, in a way you're in it together. Right? And so like, if you got to get up at 530 in the morning to set out chairs, you and that person are going to be bonded. I will tell you that much.

Ryan Burgess
So as you know, the conference is wrapping up. And you know, we're finished day two, what's, what are your reflections? Like? What are takeaways? I mean, we've covered a lot on the network and everything. But what are your takeaways?

Jem Young
One, I'll say I'll plus one, Sarah Dresner. Like, I always respect her from from afar and like we connect, like every couple of years, we're ended up at the same conference or something like that. But she says like such a unicorn that she's a really, really strong leader. And like just listening to her talk at like Netflix party, you just hear her challenges she's working through, I'm like, oh, okay, so that's how I should be thinking about that when I get to that level. But she's also super tactical, too. I really think like Sarah, Sarah jazzer is like one of these extraordinary people that it's like, I'm glad we get to know know her. So that was one takeaway. I was just, like, consistently impressed. The other takeaway was, it was it was a well run conference. I don't know how they're gonna do it next year. Because the challenge here is like, you're always trying to one up yourself. And like, make it bigger and bigger and bigger. And

Taylor Desseyn
then they've grown double. So I think first first year was like, 500. I think I know, last year was 1200. And now they're at 2800. I mean, if they was say, they can get to 5000. Next year, they

Jem Young
could, yeah. But to your to your point earlier, Ryan Taylor on like, you know, how do you communicate? How do you express yourself? How do you pitch yourself? When you go to a conference, and you're like, I'm looking for a job, I have a role or like, I'm in a role now. Have your elevator pitch down? What do you do? What are you looking for? What are you looking for in a company? Have those questions ready? And there's a big difference. And people I talked to who like, knew that already. I'm like, okay, cool. We don't have that role, or we do have that role. And actually Ryan's the guy to talk to, that happened a few times or this person to talk to but people are like, kinda looking for a job, like, what do you what do you want to do? Like, why do you front end? I'm like, great. So everybody's 2700 of the people. Yeah. So like, no, like we said earlier, you get out what you get in. So go to the conference. If you're there for networking, you're just making friends. You might want a job, maybe a year or two down the road. Connect with people connect with those people. If you're there to make friends. Just hang out, do that. Have a good time, be prepared, but don't just show up in like, Oh, I saw some toxin. I went home. I don't think that's the right way to do it. But again, to each their own. I'm not gonna force you to uncomfortable Congress. Conversations, especially

Taylor Desseyn
with some person at home is gonna be like, Jim told me to have uncomfortable conversations, and I'm going to have uncomfortable conversations. Now, I mean, I mean, for me, I mean, it's just obviously what Jim said. I think I know I've talked with a few people at booths that said there was a lot of people who just did not have the elevator pitch down and that was alarming to me, I think. I think you know, and again, I mean, I was even told because I had no my elevator pitch, right? And they're like, I'd hire you right now because of that, right? And so it's like, you know, so I'm telling you know the people listen to this, like get your elevator pitch know who you are, know what you want to do be intentional. And then also to try to come to one of these things whether it's render whether it's you know, I'm speaking at that conference in Wisconsin next month, whether it's reacted on go to one of these because I'll tell you this, I am not. I am in tech, but I'm not a developer. And I come away feeling energized. So like, being around like minded people who are trying to learn is just so refreshing. Like, I texted my wife, I said, Man, it's just so nice to be here. So you need to that's one of these.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I like all that. I mean, I don't know if I there's much else to add. But one thing I also think maybe building a bit on what Jim is, and actually Taylor, like, it's the preparation ahead of time is somewhat important in that sense. And like, there's times when I haven't prepared and gone to conferences, I still have a really good time. But I've often had a better time when I'm a little more prepared, I may not be looking for a job. And so I'm not like, hey, I need an elevator pitch on what I do. But it could even just be looking on. I know, we talked about Twitter a lot. And not not everyone's on Twitter, but oftentimes is just like finding out ahead of time who's going to the conference, because you may want to talk to someone about a certain topic, like it's, oh, hey, this person works at this company, and maybe I'd eventually want to work there. I'd love to kind of talk with that person just to get to know them, but also to like, what's their experience? Like? I think you get that authenticity, when you talk in person on those types of things that are pretty, you know, low effort networking piece. So I think like that, to me is that preparation can go a long way. It could even just be like, who's going to the conference? Or what talks Am I excited to go see, time and time again, I will show up the conference and should have checked the schedule a lot sooner planned roughly what what talks I want to see, especially when it's a multitrack conference, there's a lot of really great talks, or you get like interrupted with like something else that's going on, and you end up missing a talk. So I think like planning a little bit and just knowing what you want to see and do. It actually goes a really long way.

Jem Young
I concur. Alright, can I can I ask you something? multitrack or single track conferences?

Taylor Desseyn
Oh my god. Yeah. Let's go there. Real quick. All right, single clarify this. Clarify. Yeah. So when I think single track I just mean like one stage and a bunch of speakers.

Jem Young
Yeah. Yep. That's single true. Was reacted on single track. Yeah, yeah. And smashing conference. Last week was single track as well. Render was five tracks. Who's the mainstage?

Taylor Desseyn
So I'm gonna tell you this. I'm gonna pull developer. It depends. Well, David hanging out with you. Well done. Um, so I think you Ryan, you just talked about intentionality. Yeah, be intentional. Check your schedule. Jamie talked about intentional. There's an underlying theme here know your elevator pitch. I think it's what a conference wants to be be intentional conferences. If you want to start on what do you want to be Magnolia JS single track. It's wonderful. It's small. 150 people in Jackson, Mississippi, and it's wonderful. Like I spoke last year. It's, you know, maybe yeah, 100 150 people, it was wonderful. You get to know everyone's hugging everybody about I mean, you can just know everybody, right? When it comes to render. Justin knowing like, he wants this thing to be southpaw. He wants this thing to be like Afro tech. Right? Like, he wants us to be big. And and so that's what he wants his intention behind it. And he's building it. Right. So I would say it depends. I would say for me, I would say I'd probably lean more single track, but then there's a lot of things behind that. Because then you can only get so many people speaking to yada yada. But the single tracks have been to a lot more intimate.

Ryan Burgess
I also like that you mentioned magnolia. I met Kayla. Yeah, she's organizes it, her and I have interaction on Twitter for a long time. And I found out today that she was an early listener front end happy hour, and it helped her in her career. And like, those things are so cool to connect with. But yeah, so I found out about her conference happening in October and yes, single track. It's a lot smaller. But I'm excited for that. So to Jim's question, single track or multitrack? I agree it doesn't it does. It

Taylor Desseyn
does depend versus the Ryan space. Short Circuit. Try

Ryan Burgess
not to say it depends. But it does depend. But I reflect on a lot of the conferences that I've been to, and I lean towards single track is often a lot better, then I'll say why it to me is you get to experience the talk together like everybody is there. And so you see that talk and then you can converse over it in the networking aspect that you all saw that. It's usually a smaller conference to write obviously, there's only so many current talks that are happening. You don't have the fear of missing out. There's a lot of benefits to that. And I think that I've connect more with people on that level. render has been amazing. And I like what they're doing. And I don't think they should just all of a sudden go to single track like I like what they're doing. But it just when I think back to like some of the things where I'm like where I got to see some really great talks and didn't miss out on something that that's where I lean a little bit heavier.

Jem Young
Yeah, render render is more of an event. I wouldn't I would struggle now to call the conference when you said addressing Taylor, and Justin, the Justin Samuels, the founder of render ATL wants to make it more by South by Southwest. You wouldn't call South by

Taylor Desseyn
and I may be wrong, but but the vibe I'm getting right here, he's doing Atlanta tech week. He's He's wanting to make this thing into a big thing. So don't quote me on that. But

Jem Young
that's but that's, that's probably the better vibe is yeah, it's an event. There happened to be speaking tracks and things like that. But there's also a million I mean, it's been

Taylor Desseyn
going on all week. Like he he essentially I believe he coined Atlanta tech week two, I think he's trying to push it Lana to basically be this, you know, like, like, like, South by South buys the whole entire week.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. And that's me. It's known for that, right. Like, we all know that even if you've never been, it's like, you know that that's happening every year. Yeah. So Jim, what's your preference?

Jem Young
I do like single track, man. But for something like this, that that's an event and you're expecting that many people you have to have multitrack Yeah, it's the only way. Yeah. Because like, you know, if there's one talk that is like, Oh, I don't care. I care about like, how do I do multi threading and no GS or something like that, like, you're gonna go bounce outside, and then you wander off and you're like, not at the conference anymore. So multitrack you have something that appeals everybody, but the challenge is like stuff you miss, and there's always something you missed. Like, I missed your talk, because I was in a different, ya know, like,

Ryan Burgess
I hate you forever. Yeah. I know what that was the actually the worst part of that time slot.

Taylor Desseyn
Oh, it was for headliners. Yeah. Kelly Kelly and I talked about I mean, all for our keynotes.

Ryan Burgess
They were all great. Like, what could we have scheduled those differently? But obviously, you can't necessarily because that was my personal preference, feeling like I want to see all four talks. But you know, maybe someone else's like No, actually, I didn't care about any of them. So it's fair. But yeah, I think it's tough. I think it really it to your point, Taylor, it depends. It depends. Cool. I mean, overall, great conference. I'm so happy that I came to render ATL, it's, you know, exciting, what's happening in Atlanta, all the great things. So, you know, I'm glad that we also all get to connect and hang out on this podcast. I'm so glad that we just like randomly we're like, Yeah, let's recap each of the days. So Taylor, thank you so much for joining us on the episode. You know, second time on the podcast. I know you'll be on again. We love having you. Where can people get in touch with you?

Taylor Desseyn
At TDs and T D E S S E yn on all social media platforms? I'm on Tik Tok, but like I said, I don't dance right on your podcast too. Oh, yeah. Thanks, Jim. She mentioned that guidance counselor to point out

Ryan Burgess
Jemin Ryan had been on that they have

Jem Young
It's good stuff. I'm Jim Young on Twitter. I'm yelling you all know me but man, I wish more people would like listen to you. You have so much good advice for free and like he's not trying to sell you anything like

Taylor Desseyn
just I don't have any book I don't have a course. You know at the end of the day if you would like to use me to staff up your IT organization that'd be great. If not I'll still keep giving you content to help.

Ryan Burgess
All right on and I'm on Twitter at @burgessdryan. You can listen to front and happier on really whatever you like to listen to podcasts on finance that front on happy hour.com And you know if you are on Twitter, please follow us at @frontendhh. Tell us how we're doing. Tell if you were at render ATL tell us what you liked it. We'd love to hear like your thoughts on the conference. Thank you all for listening.