Episode transcript

Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a brand new episode of Front End happy hour. This is a unique one We're live at render ATL, which is a conference in Atlanta. This is actually the third year that the conference has been around. both Jem and I have been invited to come out to Atlanta so obviously excited to be here. We just finished up a panel discussion this morning on engineering leadership gem so it's just you and I on the podcast today we're gonna focus on reflections on render ATL

Jem Young
Yeah, this is it's great to be in Atlanta. area I'm very familiar with great to finally be at at render. We've been invited for two years now. And due to pandemic or childcare, just life, we can make it and we're really stoked. We can make it in 2023 to be at a render ATL, huge conference,

Ryan Burgess
if you've grown so much to because like people talked about it in previous years that, you know, it's as conference do they start out small, and then they slowly grow. But yeah, went from really small to bigger the second year. And now that third year, this is one of the biggest conferences I've been to

Jem Young
same same and the production value. I think the style is amazing. Like, there's a big difference between a community conference and a like an enterprise one. And just like the attendees the vibe, this is a very community oriented conference, like the vibe is better. It's just chill. Today was cosplay day. So a few people dressed up, I saw someone dressed as Superman. You know, I've got on like a fun shirt, tomorrow's like tie dye day. And it's just like, yeah, tech doesn't have to be boring and dry tech is made of people. And like, let's remember that. And that's what this conference is all about, like the people. And yeah, there's great talks, and really good speakers, but it's really about connecting with each other.

Ryan Burgess
I couldn't agree more. And I think even when talking about like a large conference, it's like when I've thought of larger conferences, it's usually like an enterprise one. I mean, Amazon has like AWS conferences, and there's tons of them. And they're usually like in Vegas of all places, too. But they're, they're quite large. And so there is that, but this is a large conference, but yeah, very community oriented. And just like a lot of really fun networking and people like all coming together. And yeah, the themes at first, I was like, oh, that's gonna be weird. But I've got to say, I've enjoyed a lot of what people are wearing, too. I saw someone dressed in a unicorn costume. And my daughter loves unicorns, I debated almost getting a selfie with this guy. And I was like, this is the best costume ever. I'm sure my daughter would appreciate that one. So yeah, I can agree a lot on the fact that like, it's been a really cool vibe. A lot of amazing speakers here to honestly, like so many people that I've met over the years at CNET various conferences, they're all here and speaking, which is really, really cool.

Jem Young
One of the the most fun things that forget about these large conferences is meeting people that you've only known from Twitter. And a lot of times I don't know about you, Ryan, but a lot of these people I've known for years on Twitter and talk to them. But I've never actually met in real life and I meet them. I'm like, wow, you're taller or shorter than I expected. Your personalities different than expected in a good way. But I love that like connecting the people, then we're gonna go back to our respective cities and, like, have these relationships and carry them forward. Because Tech is a really small world. That's what this conference conference reminds me. It's like, tech is so small. And like you just run into the same people over and over again.

Ryan Burgess
Oh, yeah. And if you know, someone, they probably know someone who knows someone. It's really cool. And I love the point on the Twitter piece that's like, there's people that I've built relationships, talking to over Twitter, that I'll come to a conference. And it's like, I've meeting them for the first time in real life. But it doesn't feel like it's the first time meeting. Even someone like Taylor Poindexter. She's engineering manager at Spotify, her and I have actually talked on like a video call many years ago, but we've connected over Twitter for I don't know how many years but it's been a while. And I'll never forget even yesterday just like walking into the elevator and she's right there. It was like and we gave each other a big hug. It's like, hey, and it's like, yeah, that was the first time we met in real life, which was kind of cool to have that connection and be able to have like everyone coming together. So yeah, good call out. I think my only thing I would love to see and you and I were joking about this is like AR would be really cool, like augmented reality of like your Twitter profile above your head or something like that. So you're like, oh, yeah, I know that person and like I've chatted with them on Twitter. But you do still find that out pretty quickly.

Jem Young
Yeah. So you want to talk about our panel this morning? Yeah, Ryan and I and Marty Burgess from Salesforce. led a panel. We were the opening Panel, there's four tracks here and the main stage and we were on one of the tracks. I gotta say, if I'm gonna, if I'm going to say negative anything, I do not want open a conference at 9am. Like,

Ryan Burgess
well, 911. And of course, we're on the east coast. So that was actually 6am pacific time for us. And so

Jem Young
we were dragging this morning, we were really dragging, it was a little tough.

Ryan Burgess
I think it overall went well. But also you have technical hiccups to deal with, right? The first thing of anything is like, yeah, there's always going to be something that goes wrong. So we had a little bit, I mean, I think we managed through it, no problem. But we had to pass a single mic, a lapel mic, that we are holding on to between the three of us. But it worked. Like I think the vibe was great. We had a really good discussion on leadership and basically mistakes that we've made as leaders. And you know, it was it was good. But even the turnout for the audience was tough, too, because there was lines of people to get in the door. And of course, they didn't make it to like all the 9am talks just because of that, too. So there. I agree. Like, it's kind of tough being the first ones. I did talk to Justin, who's leads render ATL and organizes it, he did say that he purposely put experienced speakers as the first slot, which I thought was funny. I'm like, well, that's actually not a bad call, because you learn to roll with it. So yeah, that worked. And also it helps having Taylor dessen as our emcee, he kept the room alive and like had tons of energy at 9am. And so I really, really appreciated him introducing us. And I think that helped my energy level as well. Yeah, until

Jem Young
it was a good call. For the emcee, he must have been chugging coffee, because he just had the energy.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, like tons of caffeine, like 10 cups of coffee before that,

Jem Young
in our panel was on how to not screw things up as a leader. So we talked about some of our recollections and challenges we we face over the past two, three years, especially with pandemic and layoffs and just new technology emerging. Was there any, like standout points or comments that you or someone else made on the panel?

Ryan Burgess
I mean, all my points were good. Oh, of course, of course. No, actually, really, Marty had some great perspectives I liked when we started talking about because she's a product manager, but leads product managers as well. And I liked some of the perspectives that she was sharing on how engineering and product collaborate. And we talked about, like, what works and what doesn't, and it's always really cool to hear that perspective of what does she think of engineering peers, and the good and the bad, and I definitely can relate never working with her at a company. But I can relate to a lot of product managers that I've worked with him seen how I could have maybe shown up better or how that relationship could have been tighter. And I thought that was really just interesting to hear her perspective. So that was cool. For me, even just as like almost as an audience member listening to her speak to them, like, oh, yeah, no engineering could do better at that, or Oh, I do I do a decent job at that. And, and so that was kind of cool. To to hear that perspective. I don't know. How about you? What was the takeaways that you got from it?

Jem Young
I do like that point by Marty. So I had one of the the questions I asked was, you know, how do how does engineering products work together? Because there is there's always that tension, because like product wants something engineer wants something? They're not always the same thing. So how, how do you align these things? And Marty had had a good answer. She's like, I'm a professional favor, asker. And like, that's what I do as a product manager is like, Hey, could you do me this favor? And just kind of understand the engineering perspective and then shape that into what she knows the company needs? Because like, that's, that's the products job is to like, figure out what is the company? What's the market need? But engineering is like, Oh, cool. Tech, how do we build technical debt, all these things, and like trying to balance all those out. And you had a good point too, about like, communication is like the most important thing you can do. And it doesn't matter if things change, or, you know, you're talking to a new group of people, what's important is like, you're clearly communicating what's happening all the time. And that goes to the product too. So I like both your points there. Those are standouts? To me. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
the communication one to me is something that, as a leader, I'm always striving to be better at like, How can I be more clear and concise? And that to me, I think resonates for all of our roles in that sense of being leaders,

Jem Young
what have been some of your other, like, after we did our talk, we got to connect with some of the community. By this time, the hallways are full, there's still a very long line to get in, which is a great thing, but it means not everybody caught all the talks, but I think once we wait an hour or so we're able to see and meet everybody. But what's been your experience now that like the halls are filled, you went to some vendor booths. What do you think? Well, a

Ryan Burgess
lot of people that's for sure, like you said long lines of getting people in and yeah, the once we work through some of the technical issues, things are right on track and working well. But one thing it was the coming Unity vibe is definitely something like I know, we mentioned that earlier, I feel it even just walking in the halls, but also just all the different representation of tech in one spot. Versus like sometimes like you go to a tech conference, and it feels underrepresented. And so that I feel like render has done a very, very good job of just attracting everyone from all areas of the country. And I'm sure like international, and it's really cool to see a lot of that coming together.

Jem Young
Yeah, I like that, too. It's a lot of tech conferences, you go, they're not super diverse in terms of either gender, or, you know, generally white people identify it's kind of it biases towards the way the general tech population is, and renders like, you know, trying to fix that. And it's highlighting that there is this really big diversity of engineering talent that's out there. It's just like companies have to go, they need to work a little bit harder to get there and connect with these people. And I think a lot of companies do and they know that but renders like making it really easy to do that, because you have so much talent here. I was eating lunch with, with Nick from who's actually in my Oregon in growth at Netflix, and someone walked up and they're just like, hey, I want to tell you about my startup and like this, this. This person, like they're, they're a senior in college here, I forget which college they go to, but like, they already had two iPhone apps in the App Store, which is pretty difficult to do. And they're just like, pitching, pitching us so hard. I'm like, man, you're gonna do something like your, your hustle here, your drive is like something that you turn that into real real energy, you can get VC money, like, and we're gonna hear your name later down the road. Because I can I can feel that energy. And it's like, especially as engineering leaders, you know, we talked about how difficult it is being a leader and just, it can be demoralizing. Sometimes it's a lonely job. It's a very stressful job. But like, just feeling the energy from like, some of the younger generation and some of the younger folks, and they're like, oh, they have all these big ambitions and things like that. I'm just like, yeah, yeah, I'm getting some of that.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. I mean, I feel like it re energizes you as well like being around those people and hearing what they're working on, or what they're excited about, or new tech, or all those things. I've always found that in conferences, I feel like this energy, and it excites me and inspiring to like, I think that that really has always resonated with me at conferences, but you kind of forget it. And maybe it's also too, we have been in a pandemic. And there's, you know, this year, I feel as though there are more of these in person conferences. And so it's feels like we took a hiatus a lot. And then coming back to it. It's like in full steam and being at an event like that, you start to really remember, hey, yeah, this is a cool way to connect with people and learn about new tech, or just testing people excited about things is really cool. So I'm glad you called that out to,

Jem Young
you know, what I didn't expect and I never expected but I've really enjoyed is, I gotta tell you, Ryan is really special. Having people come up to us and be like, Hey, we love. We love your podcast. Because one one thing we don't talk about a lot on. This is like the format of having a podcast is there's no feedback, really, we get comments on Twitter, maybe on SoundCloud, but you really never really know who's listening or like the demographics or any of that. So to actually meet people who are like, Oh, we're such a big fans of the front and happy hour and all these things has been really impactful. Have you had any of that run? Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
like really surprising, like, same to you. It's like you don't think of that and that people are recognizing us. We're on like, we're voices, right? Like, it's not even that we're shooting video in our podcast. And so people are recognizing us and coming up to us and seeing like, how much the podcast means to them that they enjoy it. But not only that has helped them in ways to like, Hey, we've actually given good advice on the podcast, which is really cool. Surprising. Yeah, it's that to me, it was it's really great to hear that. It's like I know we do this, like we enjoy doing this podcast and have fun doing it. But it's also to give back and help people if we can. You never really know if we are and sometimes I forget what I even say half the time like we've done so many episodes, but it's obviously resonating with people not to me, it was really great to hear that. So I agree with you. It's like nice to get that feedback and learn and say oh, yeah, great. This is actually helping.

Jem Young
Yeah, so when someone came up to me today, I was talking with them at a booth. And so it's like you all in your podcast has helped us has helped me so much during my engineering career and like I'm a better engineer for like some of the advice you're given and I'm just like, surprised because a lot of we have our topics are just talking trying to share our wisdom things like that. But you know, we're not in it to make money. We there's no ads or anything on this podcast, we just do it to give back to the community. So it's really nice to hear that like it's it's impactful, you know, it helps us keep going. So tell all your renderer, who's came up said like, we love your podcast. Thank you so much. It really gives us the energy to keep going.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, thank you. Like, I think we can't express that enough is how much like it. We appreciate people listening to us and letting us know that so yeah, that's a good call. Oh, Jeff, I'm thoroughly enjoying that. And surprised, like, definitely when people like, Hey, Ryan, and I'm like, Oh, hey, like, don't know who you are. But that it's been really cool. And it's good way to meet people, too, that that's been good. Another thing I don't know, if you've noticed, if you've looked around, like, there's so much thought that's gone into the conference for not just only like booths and things like we have a Netflix booth, which, you know, Netflix is a sponsor of render, which is awesome, too. And so that's been cool to hang out at. But I'm starting to notice, like all these like little like, niche things that are related to Atlanta, like a lot of the culture that comes from Atlanta, they're having a lot of little things that just as I walk, I'm like, Oh, that's interesting, like, you know, supporting a lot of the music that's grown up in Atlanta. And just, everywhere I look, there's like these little things that I smile at, it's really cool to see that

Jem Young
it has style, like it has a swagger, I guess you'd say Yeah, and like, that's a good way to describe it. A lot of conferences are like, pretty clean and in dry. And, and that's fine, too. But this is like, be authentic to yourself. And it doesn't matter who you are, where you're coming from, like, Bring yourself here and like find find your niche. And that's, that's really cool. It's hard to do. This 30 year running. But you know, you always run into issues with like, code of conduct and things like that. So it I think a lot of conferences just like stay away from that area is like no, this is this is how you behave. This is how it is here. It's like, yeah, you know, we have a code of conduct but bring your style with you. You know, dress dress loudly. Yesterday was Jersey day like bring wear Jersey in like, I expected sports jersey, but I saw speaking of our friend Taylor, Destin on, we've both been on the podcast guidance counselor to point out, he's wearing his like beer league hockey jersey, and then he ran to someone else wearing a hockey jersey. And just like, people, people want everything yesterday. And it's just like, it's so cool seeing just different personalities here. And it's not just people wearing button downs and name tags. It's just like, yeah, style.

Ryan Burgess
There's lots of style. I'm also a big fan of kicks, and I'm seeing some of the coolest kicks I've ever seen in one place. Like, I'm constantly like, whoa, whoa, those are so cool. And I've definitely been stopped a few people in the hobby like nice kicks, those are sweet. So like even that it's like really cool to see just these like little cultures or subcultures coming to a location. And I love that, like you said, authentic self, like, bring that and like show up that way, which is really cool.

Jem Young
Somebody else I've enjoyed. And this is something really important to conferences, but you never, you ever really think about it. And I think in the early years of my early days of going to conferences, I totally missed. But one of the more important things about conferences is networking and meeting people. So I've loved the after hours events where I get to sit down outside of the conference area, and just like, hey, I'm an engineering manager to, like, let's complain to each other. And let's talk about our struggles. And like, just hang out and learn from each other. And I've really enjoyed that so far to met some really, really just intelligent people.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, and actually, to that point, Jim, think render has done a really good job of facilitating that, too. Like, they have a lot of events after hours to like, there's the conference hours, and then they're planning all these other activities or things that go along with the conference, like obviously, you know, happy hours, but there was even if you like cars, there was an electric car show that you can go to. And to me those, it's just really cool. Like, that's not something that's necessary or that you feel you have to do as a conference. But I think it's really that community aspect that's coming into play here where it's like, they're not done at you know, five when all the last talks are done. They're like, how can we make this even bigger experience and I think that to me, it's a little things that go a really long way. Yeah,

Jem Young
agreed. And if anybody out there are front unhappy or regulars are listening, like why are Ryan and Jim going on so much about one conference? It's, it's because it's different. And the organizer Justin, Justice Samuel, he really took a chance on, like trying something new comforters are expensive to run. The logistics are a nightmare. And the fact that this is a third year running and like the height just keeps building and building and building and every year people are like, Ah, I really want to go and like you and I are we're finally glad to be here. And then not just that, but representing just a part a portion of tech that is there and it's growing but definitely still underrepresented and we get the opportunity to connect with these people and maybe influence their career. Like I feel privileged Just be invited to be here and just maybe, hopefully impact people positively. And that's why we're going on about this conference. Because it just, it's so unique and different from pretty much any other conference I've ever been to. I don't know about you, Ryan, you've been to a lot of conferences, but

Ryan Burgess
I've definitely been to a lot of conferences over the years. There's some really good ones. I mean, we've talked about a lot of the ones we've spoken at so many different conferences, you've definitely given a lot of talks over the years, Jim, I've fallen off a bit on the talk conference talks, but I've still given them here once in a while. But also, we've done a lot of live front and happy hour panels. And, yeah, I always appreciate every conference we're at. And I think it's been cool to look at this conference being very different. But then also, you and I are like, Hey, let's talk about it. Because there's a lot of people who are unfortunately, there's a lot of people out listening to us right now that aren't at the conference. And so it's we thought it was kind of a cool way to give some insights into what the conferences like how we see value in it, too. Like I know, that's something that we've always talked about, Jim is like, conferences to us are valuable. Like it energizes us. It's great for networking. I mean, we're managers, we're hiring people. And so we meet a lot of people at conferences, and connecting that way. But learning into like what people are doing, having those conversations is so valuable. And I think that that to me is a good way for us to be reflecting on it, too. So it's not even just like, hey, render render render, it's like yes, render has been really great. And it's cool for us to reflect on it. But conferences in general, I think if you can attend them, go for it. Like I hopefully companies will, you know, let you go to one at least one a year. I always say if you can get to one a year. That's amazing. Yeah, I,

Jem Young
I like your perspective there. Just like any conference, make the most out of it, learn how to connect. So I met someone today. And this was their very first tech conference they've ever been to. So I was like, well, the bad news is, this is like your first car being like a Ferrari like you're you're getting, you're getting like an amazing conference. And not many are like, like this one. But Ryan, what What tips do you have for first time conference goers not just render, but any any first time conference goer? Yeah, and

Ryan Burgess
I would say the tip may even apply to like, people have gone many times to conferences, but I like your perspective to have like someone who's first time, get out of your comfort zone, you know, speak to people and I gotta admit, sometimes like, even though I'm speak to people all the time, there's times where I'm like, oh, I need a break from that. But I think at the conferences is just like going up to people and talking to them, ask what they're working on, what are they do what company they work for those types of things. You make some solid connections, there's people that I consider friends that I've met years prior to conferences. I saw a woman today that her and I had met many years ago at a conference in San Francisco, it was like 2014. And like her, and I both looked at each other. And we're like, Oh, hey, like, you know, hadn't seen each other since that conference. But it was so cool to just connect and talk again. And so to me, it's like, just go up to people and talk with lunch. Like, you'll have to, there's only so many tables. So go sit down, introduce yourself, like ask people questions on what they're doing. And, you know, sometimes you have conversations that people they're not wanting to talk that much. But hey, you move on to the next. But I think just making yourself available and kind of putting yourself out there can go a long way.

Jem Young
Yeah, I love that get out, get out of your comfort zone. I think mistake I made it early years in conference was like, conference, go to talks in the quarter, by myself, my laptop, go back to the hotel room. That's it. And like, you miss the whole point of getting people together, if you think it's just for the talks, like the talks are kind of, I won't say the sideshow, because like, they're definitely important. But what's really important is connecting with other people in the fact that tech is a small community. And the people that you can see early on are like, they're gonna become something or like, they'll become much more notable, or you can tell they're gonna be very impactful on the engineering community. Like we see these people now. And it's like, they are impactful in the community. And it's just like, it's amazing to make these connections and learn from them. Like I definitely have learned a lot from just random leaders. Were at dinner last night, and you know, we're having dinner with Sarah Dresner. She's talking about some like leadership principles, and like, we're just debating some of these. And then Scott Hanselman comes over and he's like, oh, yeah, just gave a keynote at Microsoft to build and like, talking to him about conferences, and like, he's part of the organizer and the committee and just learning all these different perspectives from a variety of people from all across the country, all around the world, all these different companies. It's just, you just don't get that and you can't get that it's difficult to do it virtually. But it's these connections are important in the in the long run, it is

Ryan Burgess
harder to do virtually, and I love that you called that out and you're like, hey, talks are still important, like we're talking about all this networking and all that, like the hallway track to me is one of my favorite things. Obviously there's been amazing talks that render and we're only on day one of the talks. And I've already like, wow, there's some really great speakers or some really thoughtful talks on on lots of different topics, whether it be yes, there's been some AI ones, we're all obviously we're going to hear about lots of AI, but a lot of different things in new JavaScript frameworks or things that are people found interesting. In that sense. CSS, like Chris core years, I'm excited for his talk will go on some new CSS pieces. And you know, he's always got some great things to share on that. But yeah, to your point on the talks are important, and you know, that we're talking too much about the networking part. But I also think about as you can watch a lot of these talks because they are recorded. So if you're not at the conference, you can at least watch them after, but it's hard to get that networking aspect. I'm curious what what talks are you excited about jam or which ones? Have you seen that your thought were great.

Jem Young
I really liked the the talk that it was actually after our panel, Josh como? Oh, yeah, yeah, he does the reacts, if it was the name of the course, but he's like probably the most popular react course teacher in engineering right now. And his talk was like, jam full economic catch part of it. Because Funny enough, Josh and I were hanging out smashing calm last week, where I gave a talk, and he gave a talk and just, we're all at the same conference. Again, it's just like the small, small details and just connecting people over the time. Same with Henry Helvetica on Twitter, like I saw him last year or last week in San Francisco, and now he's in Atlanta, and just all these connections over and over again. But yeah, Josh's talk was good. I'm looking forward to Sarah surgery, his talk tomorrow on things about Angular, but just like the evolution of frameworks, which is like really relevant to me, because that's something we're we're looking into excited for, Shawn day person's talk tomorrow. And Charlie's on your team.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, yeah, she, I have seen the talk. It's really, really good. I will go see it again. Because it's, yeah, she she's an amazing speaker. And she does such a good job taking a technical thing that even sometimes she hasn't understood. And I've heard you say this, too, of like, sometimes giving a talk is the best way to learn. And I've seen her do that, where she's like, I want to learn this topic. And she goes deep on it. But then she does such a great job distilling that information to the audience. And so good at analogies, like I almost cry sometimes with her analogies, I'm laughing, but they're so on point. So yeah, that will be a good one. I feel like there's a few others. I'm excited for tomorrow. Just like forgetting there's too many. I think that's one problem is like, I'm having serious FOMO because I'm like, wait, I want to attend that talk and not talk but there at the same time. That's always a good sign. And there's a lot of good conference Doc's

Jem Young
that that's always the problem in the eternal debate about conferences like single tracker multitrack. The problem with a five track conference is you can't see them all at the same time. I would like to, I really enjoyed networking, but it is nice to pop in and like, just sit back and enjoy someone who can distill something, some complicated topic or learnings they've had down really simply, there's a lot of good speakers like that here. And I'm sad, I can't see them all that like that's probably the biggest downside. Yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
think that I always like that, too, is that even if you know a topic really, really well, like, if you are the expert on React, and you go to a React talk, it's cool, because even a beginner of React, giving a talk on like React, 101 or whatever. It's really cool. Because you can actually learn something or a different perspective. And I always love that as even if I'm very familiar with topic, it's cool to hear someone else share their perspective on that particular topic. I always tend to find I take something away from that. And I love that. And I think that's maybe even good advice. Like I know you and I've talked about this or people ask like, I don't know what to speak at a conference, I don't really know what to talk or I'm not the expert in this. And I'm always always like, pick something that you're passionate about. And like, just talk about it. Because just because there's 20 other people that's talked about it online or at a conference, who cares? You have a different perspective and a creative way of sharing that. And I think that's like always a good reminder of that too. Well, I mean, I think we've done a fairly good cover of the day one, I mean, there's still more to go. I think, Jim, we may as well head back inside, check out some of the talks. There's still more to go. But it's been great kind of just doing a recap of day one, and I look forward to day two, that's going to be exciting. So thank you all for listening to our episode on render ATL day one. You can follow us at front end happy hour.com Listen to us. Really whatever you like to listen to podcast on follow us on Twitter at @frontendhh. Maybe let us know how we're doing. Like we said we really love hearing from you all just knowing Hey, are we doing a good job? Do you enjoy the podcast? What would you like to hear more of we always love topic ideas. is so yeah please share with us we love hearing from you