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Ryan Burgess
Well, welcome to a new episode of the front end happier podcast. A lot of you may already know this, but I have quit my job at Netflix after eight and a half years, I decided it was time for a change. And instead of jumping into something, you know, finding a new job, I decided I'm going to take some time off, I'm not really not quite sure how long. I know, Jem and Cole have some bets on how long they won't tell me what their bets are. But it's going to be six months to a year before I think of going into a job and spending time with my kids and doing some side projects. So I'm excited. I've said I will put together more of my story. I don't really want this episode to you know, to be about that. But I think it would be really interesting to just discuss, like, leaving a job like quitting, what makes you decide to do that? Funny enough. Back in 2020, we had this conversation I completely forgot, I have no idea what we covered. But we have an episode in November of 2020, where we talk about quitting a job. So it's kind of funny. It'll be interesting to see what the conversation is differences between the two of them. But hey, it'll be interesting. All right. Before we dive into the topic, let's give introductions. Cole, you want to start off?

Cole Turner
Hey, everyone, my name is Cole and I'm a software engineer

Jem Young
at Netflix, Jim Young engineering manager at Netflix.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm Ryan Burgess, your host. Let's dive into the topic since you know, now I have no job. I also want to hear your thoughts on like, what typically makes you want to leave a job

Jem Young
I think historically money for if I'm being honest. And the I guess we'll call the pre pandemic, the before times, in the before times, leaving a job was the fastest way to get a raise. Because, you know, companies have misaligned incentives, unfortunately, where it's always cheaper to hire someone at a higher salary and give someone internal arrays. I don't know why I think that's still the case sometimes. But So historically, you know, I leave for for money or more opportunity. Sometimes just to change of pace, but I'd say the money was always There's always more money. Usually when I switch job, actually, it's always been more money when I switched jobs.

Ryan Burgess
Actually, every time I've switched jobs, it's been more money. I think that's a good motivation. It's sad gem like it honestly, is that like, to your point on that people are getting paid. It's like, why not just pay your people. Because it's so costly. I mean, Jim, you and I are hiring managers, we've hired many people over the years, it's a lot of work, cool. You've been on a lot of those interviews, it's a lot of work, it takes so much people that are involved in an interview. And then you have to spend time onboarding, that's another thing like, that's ton of work all these things. And for someone who's like, demonstrated who's been doing the work, you know them. They know a lot of deep knowledge about the business to like, eight, eight and a half years at Netflix, I know some deep knowledge of like, what's working what's not like what we've done in the past all those types of things.

Cole Turner
It's funny when you said that, because my head as you were describing, you know, leaving with all that context and leaving for more money, my head went to, well, at the same time, you're also creating a door for someone else, because you hold all this knowledge and you bring it with you somewhere else, you start over, you're that person that's filling that spot that left before you and then someone's taking your spot. And it's sad, but it's also kind of a, you know, when it's funny, they say when one door closes, another one opens, that's an opportunity for someone to bring a fresh perspective. And that's an opportunity for you. In many cases, when I've quit a job to get a clean perspective and a clean start.

Ryan Burgess
That's a great point. Cool. And to be honest, I don't think money is my motivator. I don't think ever when I think back to when I've ever left a company, it's usually that just not feeling challenged anymore. It's like probably be that I do know what I'm doing in that space. And it's just like, hey, I need something different. And that typically is it or maybe you're just not enjoying the work. Another one that I have absolutely done many times. And it's funny being a manager is I have left bad managers. Like if you have a bad manager and it's not getting better. It's sucks. And so like, honestly, one of the only things you can do, maybe it's a big company and you can move to another team. That's a good option. But oftentimes, I've left bad managers. Yeah,

Jem Young
that's a that's a really common one. And the problem with that is it takes it often takes time for companies to realize that oh, actually this person has like a lot of turnover in their team. It's the manager, but especially if the managers really say inside connected or people have a high opinion of them that Like, Oh, no, it was this person left because of, they want an opportunity or we weren't paying them enough money. And you know, they can keep trotting out excuses. And it takes like a better, I guess manager of managers to see like actually know, the common thread is this person. So we should dig in there. But that takes time to figure out and it takes more than one person leaving. And that's the problem. And that's the challenge with a bad manager is like the impact is long. And it's and it's broad. And it's really difficult to uncover until it could be years down the road, the damage is done. So I am cynical on the money part. But it's almost always a better opportunity to leave the money's a nice benefit, and definitely a cherry on top. But it's almost always a different challenge, bigger scope of role, maybe a technology stack that I wanted to work in, even in the case of it was back in the day before remote work was as prevalent, just a different place to live, I wanted to leave the place I was and move to something more exciting, or be more part of a Tech Tech community. So yeah, lots of reasons in there. Yeah, I

Cole Turner
think what Jen said really resonated with me because you leave for more responsibility. But you also leave some of that responsibility behind, I can think about all the jobs I left where I was unhappy with everything that was on my plate. And I remember going from startups where I was doing full stack development database server administration, and then I jumped into a front end career, they doubled my salary, I worked five times as few hours and I was much happier. And we, we often care about the technology. But let's not forget why we do the work, it's to pay for our lives. And so you can have a bad environment and pay me really well. And I can do that for a short amount of time. Or you can pay me really terribly and have a great environment. And that's cool. But that sounds more like family. And so you need a balance of both, you need a good environment, and you want to feel like your work is being valued. Well

Ryan Burgess
said. I mean, I like that you brought up that it's like these pieces, like a job isn't just about the money. I mean, some people might, I shouldn't say that, like, people have their motivations. And that's okay, completely okay to be like, I am doing this for money. So that, you know, I can pay my bills, I can, you know, purchase a home car, go on trips, whatever it is you want to do. That's, I mean, that makes sense. But I think about it is like, oftentimes, there's like in order to be really fulfilled and happy in a job. It's like a mix of these things. It's, you know, it's not all of the above. But if it starts to be that you're missing multiple things, or it's like, I'm not getting paid what I should be my managers not great, I'm not really enjoying the work, my team's not great. Like if those things start adding up, that's not great. Like, you could have a bad manager, but love your team. I know I've stuck it out that much longer in those situations, because you're like, Oh, but I have amazing colleagues like that, that can go a long way. Absolutely. I'd be curious, when you've made this decision, you know, you're like, Alright, I'm leaving this job. What usually is the most difficult thing that you all kind of deal with, for me,

Jem Young
the most difficult thing to deal with on leaving a job is how to message that properly. Like I don't, I've tried to think I've never burned bridges. When I when I've left a job, I don't believe in doing that. I believe in leaving, like, on top. So people have a good memory of you. But also, especially in tech, it's a small community. It's It's so, so small, and you tend to see the same people over again. And if you leave a bad impression, or, you know, just like stop showing up for two weeks, and you're like, whatever I'm out of here, like people do remember that. It comes back around. So I've always found, especially when things are going okay, it's just a better opportunity of messing that to like my manager in the team. Like, hey, it's not you. It's me. That's, that's always challenging, and especially when you made like good relationships there. But hopefully those sustain themselves over the years. But we all have like work friends who've dropped off over the years. Those are always sad, but I like to think that good relationships, maintain. But all those are like some more difficult parts of leaving a job. Yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
think for me, it's always telling like my peers or the team, the people the relationships that you've made. Even when I've been at jobs like short time, I think the shortest I've ever been at a job was three months. It wasn't because I hated it. It wasn't because I had a bad manager that I left actually thoroughly enjoyed that the work I was doing and the team that I worked with. I just had a life change where I was moving. And so you know, that makes a big difference. I didn't know that when I went into it. And it happened. But yeah, I think always even that moment I remember like I built up relationships in that short time. And I was nervous to tell my manager to tell my team, maybe even more so because I just started and probably felt like I just ramped up. And that kind of sucked. But I think every single time, I'm always a little bit nervous to, you know, tell whether it be my manager or people that I really liked working with. It's just, it's hard. I also hate saying goodbye and doing all that kind of stuff. It's, it's not something I enjoy.

Cole Turner
I'm actually the opposite I, I never read the same book twice. I love all of the people I work with in terms of we make good connections. And I've even encountered like Jim said, people moving from one company to another, and we work together again, and it's awesome. But I think part of leaving a job is leaving it behind. And that comes with the baggage that comes with the things that you were unhappy with, potentially you might have been burned out or feeling undervalued. And so I'm very much somebody that likes to look forward. And it's always great when I crossed paths with people again. But leaving a job can almost feel kind of cathartic. And you're sometimes you do need to release you need to let go and just look forward and

Ryan Burgess
so cool. Like what do you mean by letting go? Like, is it just like a matter of like you're, you know, close off the work and you're kind of cut ties? Or like what how do you mean by closing out?

Cole Turner
Um, I? That's funny, because it sounds like I'm saying burn bridges. But that's not.

Ryan Burgess
That's not what you meant? Like, I was like, No, he's not saying burn bridges. But I'm curious like how you mean, like, kind of close that chapter.

Cole Turner
I think like a lot of people leave their jobs. And they carry this tension and this stress with them. And they carried into the next job and they internalize the things that they didn't like about the old environment. And in many cases, I've seen people carry that environment with them to this new job. And part of my process of leaving a job is taking time off like you're doing Ryan, which is super awesome. Because it gives you time to reassess what's important to you, and what's valuable to and to put together a plan because you don't want to just quit a job and not have a plan. You might have something lined up like a year later, you might have something lined up for two weeks or a month later. But when I leave a job, I start to put together a plan of like, what are my goals for this next opportunity? What do I want to get out of it. And if my head is just stuck back, and like, Ah, I hated that experience, then I don't think I would be able to look forward. And part of that does mean being intentional about the people who are either adding to your goals or who are maybe stuck in the path

Jem Young
to your point, cool. I I like that too. It's to what you say like be intentional, you don't quit a job in a rage. You know, we're not, we're not children, you may your boss may chew you out. And you may have really unpleasant working situations. But still, you take some emotional maturity and be like, Okay, this may be the final straw and like nobody else knows it. But like something inside whenever you decide to leave a job, like takes over. And that's whatever stage it is. But when we say like don't burn bridges, that's what it's about is like, you may be unhappy. You may be like, you know, if this meeting, I'm out. I don't have to deal with this. But you don't do that you you're like calm the rational, and you understand why you're leaving. That way. It'll help you in your next job too. And that's something when we want to interview people, we you know, we asked like, Hey, why did you leave your job? And it's not just for curious to know, what your history and past was? It's about how you describe your former coworkers? How do you ascribe your former work? Do you point the finger a lot? Or can you say like, you know, my manager, like we just didn't connect, I think their management style wasn't in line with what I was looking for. And they didn't provide the right learning opportunities for me. Whereas in reality, you know, we sit down to have a beer, you're like, This person sucks. They never prepared. They would like blame people constantly and like, that's fine. But I guess what we're talking about is like professionalism. And that's what it means. A question for you all. What's your shortest tenured job you've ever worked at? And quit not? I'm assuming you've never been fired. But uh, yeah, what's your what's the shortest

Ryan Burgess
mine was that three months? Honestly, I don't think I'd had shorter even you know, some of those like teenager type jobs like I don't Yeah, I think that was my shortest I

Cole Turner
think mine was I had a client that didn't know exactly what they wanted and they would keep asking for scope creep and so I charged them a ridiculous fee and did just the scope that I agreed to it and said Peace out. Oh, yeah,

Ryan Burgess
man, deal with clients. You can quit clients. That's a That's a good one to cover. Honestly, sometimes probably a smart move cool. You know, when you're just like, wait, I'm getting suckered in and all this and you think about your bottom line of what you're charging. And they're asking For all these things like sometimes quitting a client is a smart move. So yeah, I hadn't even thought of that here. We're talking about jobs and quitting like a role. But yeah, quitting a client definitely is a smart move sometimes. Maybe that's when you do burn a bridge. I mean, you can do it professionally. Like Jim said, you know, like you, but you're kind of like, we're not gonna work together. Like, that's, that's okay.

Cole Turner
I mean, I just tell them, I either charge a lot, or I tell them, I've got a contract coming up, so I won't be able to renew theirs

Jem Young
to both of you when you have quit jobs. What's the what's the tipping point? Is there like a generally one where you're like, you know what? That's about, because there's always there is something there's some moment that happens when you're like, This is too much. It's always, it's always building. And whether or not you know it or not, that's a different story. But there's always some moment when you decide. That's it, I'm gonna go find somewhere else. But what is that moment? Is there one? Or is it just depends on the situation? And it's a

Ryan Burgess
good question. I always wish I was a little more thoughtful, like, where I think like, hey, you know, I'm constantly checking every, you know, every quarter or every few months, like, Am I happy? And am I enjoying this work? I think that's a good thing to do a healthy thing as you should be checking. So that's some good advice, if you are thinking about that. For me, even reflecting on this last time, I think it was building up for a while where it was just like, I'm needing that change. There was a lot of things I really enjoyed. It wasn't like, Oh, this is the worst thing ever. No, it's I mean, I was literally at a job for, you know, the longest I've ever been at a company eight and a half years is a really long time. And I thoroughly loved so many things about it, that it wasn't like, Oh, hey, it's so obvious. But I think I reflect and it's, it's been, you know, probably a building up for a year, where it was just like finding, like I was burning out being pulled in so many directions, being a parent, as well as you know, being a manager and doing all these things. And it just felt like I needed some change, and also wanted to invest more time in my kids. And so just kind of came to a head though. I would I literally had not thought about it for weeks on end or anything. The one this one day, it just hit me. There was a small like thing that triggered it. And it was just kind of like, This feels like the right time to leave. And that's how it happened. You know, it wasn't like, Oh, I've been thinking about this for, you know, a week. No, it was just literally it hit me. But I reflect on it. I think it had built up. So I think to me, and when I think about other jobs that I've been at, it's usually something's building up. It's not super thoughtful. It's like, oh, the minute Jim gives me one more task to do. I am done. You know, it's nothing like,

Cole Turner
it sounds like it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Ryan Burgess
I don't know for me in any of these times, it's just, it's slow. It's probably like a slow burn, and then just kind of hit you. You're like, Alright, I need that change. I need something different. What about you, Joe? Calls avoiding the answer. The call is avoiding the answer.

Jem Young
Yeah, I haven't answered. What's your answer? Cool? Well, I

Cole Turner
was gonna let him go first.

Jem Young
I don't think there's one single time. Like, there's no like, Oh, this is the defining moment. And that like, crystallizes my decision. And in any job. I say that a lot of reasons why I leave it is just a better opportunity, which opportunity includes money. But opportunity also includes scope, and impact, and just sometimes prestige, like coming to Netflix to prestige, just coming to Netflix was was worthwhile. So I'd say generally, when those moments happen is, when the opportunity comes across that I have a realistic chance to do. So some of that's just being prepared. Like, it turns out my resume was in a good state. And I, you know, I met Ryan at the right stage of my career where I knew the tech stack and could interview well, and like all these things just happen to line up. And that's happened before in other jobs where I've left for just the chance was there and I took it. That old saying, luck is preparation, meeting opportunity. I do believe that. So some of it, I do say like, I've been lucky in my career, but some of that is just when the opportunity is there. You have to be aggressive and go after it not be shy. So yeah, no, no, ragequitting No, no, this is it. No one single moment.

Cole Turner
I like that. I think I'm going to think about that for a while because I feel like that is the direction I want to go in. But the direction I found myself is feeling like I'm giving too much of myself and not getting enough back from this job. And that can show up in terms of like compensation or the the effort I'm putting in and how I feel how it feels to work with my colleagues or even the work that we're working on. I think I've only ever been pushed away from jobs in the sense of I felt like I wasn't getting enough out of it. And I started to look elsewhere. But once I found something, then I was starting to weigh the options. I would bring it back to my old job. And it was only when I got the response from my old job that I actually felt, no, I have to get away from this, I have to get towards something better. And Jim hearing you describe that, I remember a situation where I brought back to an old job that I got an offer at a different place, and they wanted to double my salary. And then literally, after I argued about a raise or better working conditions, they were like, Okay, we'll pay you more. And that to me was a slap in the face, because you had, you had not valued my work. And you're showing me that all it took was me convincing you that you will lose me if you don't recognize my value, so you'll never see the value. And I think that's where I could be a little bit more like,

Ryan Burgess
I mean, Cole, I've had that happen many times, though, were you you know, you've gone and looked for another opportunity, or maybe the opportunities found you. I love that Jim brought that up, too, because sometimes opportunities just show up. And you're like, wow, I actually wasn't sure I wanted to leave. I think that's even how Netflix came for me. It was just like, there's constantly times where I was pushing it off me like, no, no, no, I don't, I'm happy. I don't want to move. And then just kind of, they're like, hey, this offer and I'm like, great. This sounds awesome. But yeah, I think that when someone another company tries to fight to keep you, I think sometimes it feels like a little too late at that point, like you've already started to look elsewhere. Like you've already made that decision. Like, I'm breaking up with you. I'm paying you're fighting to keep me it's like, why didn't you just show me that when I was here? So I think that's a good call out is that sometimes it is a little too late. Even when someone's doubling your salary. I feel like that sucks, though. You're like, why don't you just give me more money to begin with? I

Jem Young
think we we talked about this. Maybe as the other quitting episode A many episodes ago on counteroffers. A company isn't like, should you accept the counteroffer? And I think the conclusion or reach was now you shouldn't and to the point, you're making Cole and Ryan, they had the chance to make you feel valued. And they didn't. They didn't present that until like they were forced against the wall. And, you know, who wants to live under an ultimatum? Like, no one's happy in that scenario? And you know, the person just kind of quit, too, because it's not always about money. It's always about title. It's a combination of all these things. And, and I like she said this earlier, Ryan, feeling valued? Do you feel valued? Does your manager feel valued? Do you feel like you're contributing to the organization. And those are things you can't just throw money or title at there's there's a lot more to

Cole Turner
it. That being said, I will quit Netflix, if anybody offered me like $2 million a year, just just putting that out there. I do like money I have to buy dog treats.

Ryan Burgess
You your dogs need to live a good life Cole, I get it that that makes sense. What would

Cole Turner
convince you, Jim, to quit your job right now. And Ryan, what would convince you to get one for me,

Jem Young
it's get me to quit my job right now. It'd be a hard sell, I think talking to other companies as I do. Again, you always want to be prepared for the opportunity. When they describe the roles they have, the scope is always much smaller than what I have now. And the the impact is smaller, too. And that's me switching jobs, even for more money to have less scope. I know, the long one would not make me happy. So it'd be a tough sell. What would make me leave my job is that opportunity like to be a senior manager to lead other leaders to be a director. Because those are very hard to come by. So if the right opportunity came? Yeah, I'd have a serious discussion about it and, you know, talk things over. But I have a good relationship, my manager where if it did come, I'd have a conversation and be like, Hey, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? Because you know, things are pretty healthy. I'm pretty happy. But I'm also not. So a mistake I've seen people make is not leaving, because they're either scared. Because I've been at Netflix for eight and a half years. And I have a lot of like, insider clout or knowledge and people know me and I know the systems. And I've seen people afraid of making the jump where you're going back to state zero. And I've seen that hold people back. So I never want to be in that position where I'm like, Well, I'm really comfortable. I'm too comfortable. It's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be ready but I'd say the longer you stay at a job especially want to skate his Netflix the harder it is to leave because you get comfortable. You get lazy I guess as a as another term. So being uncomfortable is a hard place to keep yourself at the edge. all the time. So that's a long way of saying, Yeah, of course, I would leave a better opportunity. I'm not looking. But I'm not so foolish to turn something down because I'm comfortable.

Ryan Burgess
I like that you said, it's almost like you mentioned it to impact, right? Like you'd said that and like, being able to have those challenges and growth, like that's a big one is like you will gain more experience. If it's like a gem, you're leading a 50 person or Well, that's not something you have today. And so you're like, alright, throw me into that challenge one. Yes, it will be scary to leave your job that you've been at gem, you've been at Netflix for over eight years now. And so that is scary to leave when you're like, Yeah, I like this. It's not like you're leaving something that's bad. Leaving something that's bad. That's easy, you know? Well, maybe I shouldn't say that is like it still is hard. But it's a lot easier when you don't like something. But yeah, I like what you'd said, what I read that is like, yeah, you're looking for those challenges, you're looking for that impact. It's not title, like even though you said, Oh, for a senior manager, director, someone could just give you that title. And that's not really it was the scope, it was the impact and the challenges, which I like, man, for me to take a job. You know, I think that's, it's interesting, because I'm purposely trying to hold myself accountable to not go after a job right away. Because I want that time to just to really reflect and to use that time, which I'm thankful to have to just kind of figure out what's next and just kind of go with that. And that's hard for me. And it was hard to leave Netflix, because I enjoyed it so much. And so it feels weird. It even to talk through this, it feels weird. But what would make me just take a job one, I have to, you know, I'm holding myself accountable, have to have that time off to decompress and really think that through. And then I think during this time, I'll know more of like, what are the next challenges? What are things that I want in my career? And I look at it as more like, yeah, I want to be excited. I want to have a team that I'm excited to work with a product that I'm excited to work on. That's another one that didn't really come up yet in this episode. But I want to be passionate about what I'm working on to that's that's an important factor. But yeah, for the time being, it's going to be you'll hear me on the podcast. And you know, I'm excited to spend more time doing podcasts. But yeah, taking the downtime. It's kind of nice. I like that you're being intentional, trying to be men, it's it's tough. Maybe saying this on a podcast is gonna hold me accountable. I had this one opportunity. Actually, I was probably about 10 years ago, where I was like, Ah, I'm not working, I'm taking time off. You know, I'm just going to take a break between jobs. I lasted, I think I was, I don't know if I set a time. But it wasn't what I lost it. I lasted a month, I was like, one month and I was like, Okay, I need to go find a job. It was different times then to like, I didn't have kids. And you know, there was there was that, that like that, you know, definitely take some of my attention already. But I do remember thinking it would be like maybe a three or four month period where I would you know, just take some time, and I hit a one month and I was like, alright, let's dust on the resume and start these interviews because I am bored. And you know, I watched sopranos like all the way through like a second or third time, you know, it was just like, all righty to get a job.

Cole Turner
Which job did you get after that, um,

Ryan Burgess
that was actually when I moved to the Bay Area. The whole it's funny is that job that I left for three months, that was only three months was when I moved to San Francisco. And I was like, okay, cool. Like my wife, she was starting work. And I was like, you know, help, you know, just getting the move settled. And I was really tired. I was working a lot in Toronto working a lot of agencies. And I was like, I, I could use a nice break. And I actually did have a app that I was building myself. And so I was like, I'm just gonna use that time to do that. And so it was in between me going to Evernote, actually. And so I had some downtime, and then decided, yeah, I kind of want to go work at a job. So I didn't last long. That's nice.

Cole Turner
I like that. I like what you're doing now. Because I feel like as somebody who's been in full time jobs for a while, there's very few opportunities in your life where you can take time off and be intentional about your life, figure out what your goals and values are. And you're doing that now and I see that happening. I'm a little bit jealous, to be honest. But I think I think I you know, I like the money a little bit too much right now not to say like, I don't also want to just kind of blow things off and go live in a van somewhere maybe down by the river, maybe not. But after my next next time I'm seeking a job I'll probably take some time off or at least a year kind of like you're doing and just kind of figure out what life looks like without the grind. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
I think it's healthy. I mean, but also let's recognize, too, there's some serious privilege like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Not everyone can do that paycheck is tough. And like, there's there's a lot of factors that come in play and even even for me to do that, that was really hard to even just like comprehend, you will not have a paycheck. That's really hard to give up. Like Cole even you saying that? I still struggle with that. And I mean, it, that's probably what was the leading factor to is like, Alright, I'm gonna leave and not do anything. That was tough like that, that probably took me a while to wrap my head around not having, you know, a constant paycheck coming in. Yeah.

Cole Turner
And I said this to Jim, I'm lucky to say that because I don't have kids to take care of it is just me, I don't have even a plan B. So I've been saving for some time. I don't encourage anybody to just quit your job and go live as a nomad or whatever. Definitely, you know, we work in tech, we work in a privileged industry, we work in my opinion, very cushy jobs. I, my hands are soft, everybody talks. And so, you know, no matter what job you're doing, it's important to realize what you're putting into it and what you're getting out of it. And I think, you know, drawing this back to earlier in that episode, for me, it always comes down to is do I feel like I'm giving up more of myself than I'm getting back. And you see that throughout your life, not just when you're at work, but it's like when you are going to bed? What do you think about? Are you thinking about the next day and the problems that are going to come up? And does that just make you want to leave or stay and work it out? Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
well, so it might sound weird, but I always think back to I think it was like Steve Jobs had given the speech at Stanford, I believe, to like a commencement speech, when he there's this one line about him, always like looking in the mirror every day. And like, when he's constantly unhappy at what he's doing. He's like, that's when you want to change something. And so I think going back to, like, things build up and it's like, you should be checking that, like, if you're unhappy, then maybe think about that. There's needs to be some change call. I'm gonna come back to you closing the book. And you know, moving on not not not burning bridges, but closing the chapter,

Cole Turner
leaving the past in the past. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
exactly. I'm curious, though. Have either have you regretted leaving a job? Never. Nope, not me neither. Even when I've been happy at the job and moving? It's like, to me, I think it's, it's that growth, right? Like, it's like, it's meant to be maybe the Colts chapter analogy. It's like, yeah, you're you're you're moving on. And that's okay. Even if you end up somewhere, which I think sometimes I've had that where I went to another job, and it wasn't maybe as great as I expected, I thought it was gonna be a little bit different. But I don't go oh, I should go back to the other job. It's usually like, alright, well, I'll move on to the next challenge.

Cole Turner
Exactly. And I'll just add one more thing to that is something I enjoy doing that I recommend is use every new opportunity as a way to redefine yourself, don't, when I say leave the past, in the past, I mean, myself, I mean, the person who I was at that job that made me unhappy, leave that behind and figure out what you're going to do next time to make it better. Yeah, I

Jem Young
love that goal. I love your like very introspective take on, like pretty much everything. I think, when it comes to regretting quitting a job now, because there's something really fulfilling and like deeply human about taking a risk, and then seeing that payoff. And it's a question of like, do you want to live a quiet, comfortable life? Or do you want to be fulfilled? Do you want to be challenged, and I respect people that don't, and they just want to live a quiet life, you know, I'm comfortable doing my thing. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But I do find satisfaction in what I do, much to the chagrin of my wife sometimes. But like, I do enjoy the challenges. And I do find satisfaction there. The question is like, how long would that last? I think I'm aware of myself, I'm aware of just the long tail of the career the your 40s or 50s, the part that a lot of people in tech don't think about it's like, what are you going to do in your 40s, your 50s, maybe even your 60s. And I recognize I won't always want to be challenged. Sometimes I just want like, everything's predictable. Everything's comfortable. I know what's going on. So in my mind, I always want to keep pushing, because I know that time will come I don't know when it will come. Maybe it'll be when I'm 70. But there will be a point where I'm like, You know what, I'm good. I don't need to keep pushing. I don't want to keep getting more scope, a bigger role. So for now, I keep I tell myself that and I keep going and I keep challenging myself wanting to grow, because I know that won't be forever. And I tell it to all young software engineers is there'll be a point where you probably get tired of coding. And you probably you can't even think of that in your 20s But there'll be a time when that happens. And then what do you have after that? And it's important to like start thinking early about like Who you are deeply? Like, what brings you satisfaction

Ryan Burgess
like that? I mean, I do think you should reflect on like, what brings you satisfaction, maybe a little different gym, I look at it, maybe it's just because of the situation I'm in right now of like coming to that conclusion is like I'm with you, I like to be challenged. Honestly, I think that's the top of my list when I leave a job is because I'm like, I'm not challenged anymore. I want something new. I want to learn and grow. And I think for me, I don't think that it's like, just one way like, I look at this as me taking a break. And I'm comfortable with that. It's like, I'm not done my career. I'm not retiring. I mean, that'd be cool to retire at my age. That'd be awesome. But I don't think I would be happy in that scenario, though, either. And so I think it's more like cool like, this is it's okay not to push, push, push. So if someone's tired of coding, maybe take a break, right? It's like the career is not gone, you can always come back to it. I've had though, actually one of my close friends she had taken I think two years off for like, it was actually something with her kids that she just taken some time off. And she had said, I best decision I ever made was doing that. And I was like, Oh, that's really cool, that she had just kind of felt like that. One thing though, on the learning. My guess he's almost seven now. But my six year old son, he goes, Dad, you can't take a year off. I gotta hear the logic behind this one. He goes, because you won't be learning anymore. And I was like, Wow. That's pretty cool. Because I think even he sees that as like you're constantly learning and growing. So yeah, I think that you can constantly be chat and wanting to challenge yourself. Maybe it's a good time, maybe before we dive into pics, I think there's been some good pieces of advice in this conversation. But you know, what's one piece of advice that you would leave our listeners with on, you know, thinking about quitting their job, maybe they're, maybe they are unhappy? Or maybe they want that new challenge? What's a piece of advice that you would leave them with

Jem Young
following calls, calls a fan of deep introspection, what you have to understand yourself and what you're looking for, what what you're looking for in your next role. It's kind of like a relationship. You know, if you bounce around the relationship, always looking for someone to make you happy. Like you'll never find happiness. Same for a job. If you're unhappy about a job. And you're like, Well, let me just try this other job without actually thinking about what you want. You're just going to end up unhappy again, because you don't know what you're looking for. So any advice I'd say about quitting a job is one, don't be professional about it. But to understand what you're looking for, if you have the privilege of taking time to find your job, do that. Take your time. Don't take the first thing that comes to you. And that's that's the way you'll you'll be happier in the long run is trying to make these intentional moves. I like that.

Cole Turner
Everything Jim has said has resonated me with me today. Because I remember a few years ago, he and I talked about like what's next in our careers? Do you kind of always keep climbing and look for challenge after challenge? Or, as we talked about earlier in this episode, do you sometimes just kind of idle or continue doing what you're already doing? And I think if you're someone out there thinking about quitting your job, my advice to you would be Don't quit on an empty stomach. Don't quit when you are angry, don't quit when you have bills to pay. Sometimes we react and reactions can bring out the worst in us. And I've seen that in people who have quit their jobs. And they just they go somewhere else and they bring their problems with them. And being intentional means taking the time to really process why are you quitting? Why are you changing yourself from this experience into something better? And really, that's what it should be. It should be about bettering yourself.

Jem Young
Yeah, that's great advice.

Ryan Burgess
Oh, those are both good pieces of advice. A hard to follow. I think for me, I love the like being intentional and be thoughtful and think through that you know, don't rage quit. That's always probably a good one. I think too is just, you know, lean on someone that you trust to like if you're maybe thinking about a different role or you're unhappy talk to someone about it to get their input and advice on it sometimes that can help to is just by talking through with someone that can also help lead to me be a plan like you're like alright, cool if I you know, keep keep being unhappy like I'm going to talk to that person and bring that up so to maybe change or we keep saying is like unhappy it's like it could just be looking for a new challenge to another thing is like Jim mentioned earlier in the episode is a network interview. Go like kind of keep your ear out there to like what other opportunities are available. Cool. Well, let's dive into pics in each episode. Front End happier podcasts we like to share things that we found interesting want to share with all of you, Jim, you want to start it off,

Jem Young
my pick is going to be just now Cole's panic face when he realizes where it picks and he didn't have any. It's pretty, pretty good. I have one Pick for today. It's an article on by futurism. And it's about AI generated articles. So the some of the researchers and journalists have futures and did some digging. And it turned out a lot of the articles on Sports Illustrated, were written by fake people, they didn't exist. Like everything was fake, their bio their headshot was aI generated. And so like, when they when they poked out and said, like, Hey, what's up with this? This person doesn't exist. They're like, No, no, no, the people didn't exist, but the content was written by real people. And, you know, the journalist, frankly, I like, so you're telling me everything else was fake and AI generated, but the content was real, like, and then they they dug more. And it's not the only like, major publication that is doing this, which is kind of wild because you know, Sports Illustrated isn't some no name rag, it's it has like, cachet in the industry. And if they're doing this, it makes you wonder how many other articles or how many other publications are doing that too, and are just more careful about it. You know, put a little bit of backstory into the the people that create. So I really appreciate this sort of like investigative digging. But it's also kind of a hint into the future of where we're going on the internet where it's just robots talking to robots. I I can see it pretty easily where you can just create entire persona like a LinkedIn, a website, maybe even a YouTube channel or something. And it's completely fabricated. A Tinder Yeah, it's all completely made up. And we can do that today. With with to string enough technology together. So I don't know. I don't know how I really feel about this future and how we're going to cope with that. But it's an interesting glimpse. So I recommend reading the article. It's it's pretty good. Reporting.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. Call. What do you have for us?

Cole Turner
I my two picks today are if you didn't know this about me, I just moved to San Diego. I live in a neighborhood called North Park that I really love because it's a nice West Coast walkable village. I leave my house every day to grab coffee grab food, something I couldn't really do before in the suburbs of San Jose. So if you're looking for a great place to go on vacation, check out North Park, San Diego, and my second pick is a game I just tried for the first time yesterday called lethal company. You and a squad of people I didn't know I would go around different worlds to collect scrap parts to sell back at the home base. What I didn't know is that you would go through dark hallways. Landmines, turrets, doors, it's just you think you're going down a wrap that's really safe. And then your heart just jumps out of your chest scared as hell, which sometimes feels like working in tech. And so if you're looking for a good game, check out lethal company.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, I thought I wasn't sure where you're going with that one. When it's called lethal company. I'm like we were talking about quitting. What's going on?

Cole Turner
Now? Thankfully, I've never quit a job anywhere near Yeah, no, it's always been amicable. That's awesome. All right,

Ryan Burgess
I have two picks. One is a Netflix limited TV series on Netflix called Fool me once. It's about a woman who was previously in the army, she comes to home from a war to find her sister who has been murdered. Then like days later, or weeks or something later, her husband gets killed. And she goes off to try and figure out like what's happened to uncover like these, you know, what's happened to her sister and husband and she uncovers this large conspiracy. It's a really good watch. I recommend checking that one out. I also always love the limited series like it's like the kind of it's one and done you know, they're not going to try and drag it out. So I enjoyed the story. And then my second pick is actually a like a spice or rub for for grilling. I do like a lot of grilling and smoking. I guess in my free time. Now I've been doing a little bit more of that. I found this sweet rub that is so good. Like I find like it works so well on meats and vegetables. It's called Hey, grill. Hey, sweet Rob. Totally one of my favorites right now. So if anyone else likes to grill or smoke or cook, I mean you can try this rub out. It's even available on Amazon so I will make sure to share the link in the show notes. Well thank you all for listening to our episode. Make sure to subscribe to us on whatever you like to listen to podcasts on leave us a review. Tell us how we're doing. Tell us about jobs you have quit and maybe there's some advice that we've missed in this episode. Any last words?

Jem Young
Keep it professional.

Cole Turner
Don't quit on an empty stomach.

Ryan Burgess
Don't flip the desk no rage quitting.

Jem Young
I like the Don't quit on empty stomach.