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Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a new episode of the front end happier podcast. While we were attending render ATL at a networking event, one of our listeners asked me if we could cover a topic on networking. Kind of funny at being at a networking event. It made a lot of sense to me. And so I figured this episode, let's all share our thoughts on networking, and share some of the success stories that we've had or experienced while using networking in our careers. Let's go around and give introduction of today's panelists. Jeremy started off

Jem Young
gem young engineering manager at Netflix,

Stacy London
Stacy London, principal front end engineer at Atlassian. Everyone,

Cole Turner
I'm an API engineer at Netflix.

Augustus Yuan
Hello, everyone. My name is Augustus. I'm a software engineer at

Ryan Burgess
Twitch. And I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm a engineering manager at Netflix. In each episode of the front end, Happy Hour podcast, we'd like to choose a keyword that if it's mentioned at all, in the episode, we'll all take a drink. What did we decide today's keyword

Augustus Yuan
is connection, connection, action and

Ryan Burgess
action. All right, which hopefully in your networking, you're making some sort of connection. But yeah, let's let's dive into the topic. I feel like oftentimes, some people are a little skeptical of putting in the effort to networking. And so maybe the level set and start, why even bother networking?

Stacy London
I mean, I guess I could start with I don't know about like, networking as a, something that I've have done intentionally. But I most of the things I'm going to are like, because I'm interested in the topic of the thing like the like JavaScript meetup. I'm like interested in that. I'm not necessarily going to network, but it kind of just happens as you talk to people. And then through that, I would say a lot of my ability to get jobs has been because people I've met through those kinds of events, or like doing this show, and like meeting people through the show, like it's opened a lot of doors. And so that's been, I think, really huge for me, like if you are able to expand all the people that you know, and that just helps open more doors, especially if you're trying to look for

Ryan Burgess
work. Yeah, I think that's well summarized Stacey. Like I think there's sometimes it's hard to know, like what the benefits are in the moment, like you said, even going to an event that you're like, Oh, I wasn't really going to network, but you end up meeting someone. And you're like, wow, okay, that that's great. Actually, I think Stacy, you and I met at an event many years ago at a conference in San Francisco. And you know, I think I was like 2013 or 2014. Like it was so long ago. But it's like, that wasn't the intent. It was like we were both there going to see talks that we were interested in. It's like just so happened that that's where he met, which is I don't know, I think that is very powerful. But it's it's hard to know the benefits right away.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I guess I'll kind of echo that. I guess I'll just add that, like, you just never really know, like, when someone you meet might like, be helpful, not even if like, even if you're not even intentionally looking for some guidance, like, I remember just like meeting random people. And like, if I'm ever curious about like a career change, or something like it's always good to, like, have people you can like reference. And I've always seen networking as like a way to get like more diverse perspectives on other things. So I hope people like don't just take away that, like you have to network with people within your career. It's like really cool to network with people who are outside of your career, like my, like girlfriends and optometrists. And I've met so many doctors, and it's really cool to even hear like some of the technical problems that they face in healthcare. And it's like, oh, what kind of solutions can we think for that? Stuff like that?

Jem Young
I like that advice. I guess that's that's not something you hear very often, like, broaden your tech horizon. Usually, when people talk about networking, it's always in relation to finding a job or getting something from the other person like career advice, or mentoring or something like that, which, which is true to some degree. But to me, that doesn't seem genuine, it kind of seems it seems a little scummy. I'll just go ahead and say, I know like popular advice, even for people exiting boot camp and from, you know, people on Twitter are always like, always be networking, you never know where your next opportunities gonna come from. And I'm like, that's, that's not what it should be about. It should be about making these genuine connections. And if that's intact, if it's on tech, cool. You know, let it let it be the way it should be. But I think approaching the idea of networking and making friends making connections shares with other people is for like solely your own day. And it's kind of weird. It'd be like, Hey, I'm friends with Colette I guess, Stacy and Ryan, because someday I intend to get something out of them. Versus like, I enjoy their their companionship, their their feedback, things like that. That's me. So networking should be not this. Oh, hopefully I'll get a job or something. But I don't know what you thinking, am I? Am I too cynical about the advice I hear around networking? No,

Stacy London
I think it's a really great side effect. Because like when you actually make genuine connections, real, like human connections with people, it's a nice side effect. And I don't think people like vouching for you. Just because you fake network, you know, like, that's not going to open the right doors, that's gonna open weird doors.

Cole Turner
I agree, I feel like networking is a lot like dating. Like, when you go looking for it, you find nothing of what you want. But when you just sit there and enjoy it and let it come to you, you build these beautiful relationships that are built on fun on trust on common interests. And all of the jobs that I've ever found, came from there. But it wasn't because I was looking. It was because we had that strong connection. And there was this moment, were like, Hey, I'm going through this, and they're there to help you, and you're there to help them. And it was, it was funny, I actually got my job from Netflix from a previous colleague who happened to know Ryan, and I happen to be looking for work and said, Hey, could you pass my resume along? And because I, my friend knew Ryan, it, that connection worked. And that's the power of a network. And we're still friends, like, even though it like I agree with Jem, you don't want it to feel transactional? And that's really where like, you got to keep a connection growing?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I think sometimes you can be, you know, explicitly be trying to network in ways where it is a little bit transactional in some ways, like I think about, I'm agreeance, in all of the what you're saying, like, I would prefer to almost be networking with people, where it's like, it doesn't feel like you're forcing that. And I think all the best networking that has happened to me are things that have benefited me. Similar to call like, I likely attribute getting my job at Netflix is just because of being at conferences and events and meeting some of the engineers at Netflix, and just genuinely having conversations with folks where it was like, hey, like we're doing this at this company, you guys are working on that, like how's it working? Just generally having those conversations to like, share ideas, and then it turns into, you're like, wow, I kind of want to work with these folks. And they want to work with me, and, and that kind of can happen. So it's a lot more natural. But I do think there's opportunities, though, when I think Jim, you mentioned like a boot camp, it's like, Well, ultimately, you are trying to find a job. And sometimes it's going to be a lot of work to get that job. And you still don't want it to come across super transactional. But I think there's ways in which you can approach it, where it's like, maybe it's reaching out to people on LinkedIn, or or people in your network and saying, I would love to actually just learn more about Augustus like what it's like to work at Twitch. I know you've worked there for a while can can you take 30 minutes or 15 minute call to just tell me about your role? And, and to me that it's not, you're not asking for like, Hey, give me a job, but you are learning something new, you are making that connection. So I think there are ways you can do it, where it doesn't feel as Oh, you can't help me on to the next person it that's where it feels a little bit. Kind of icky.

Augustus Yuan
I love how you well, you included me in your example. So of course I love it. But for like, like people who are doing their career, like, I love the advice you give, like definitely approaching it from what can I learn a little bit about your role, like, I know, like for people who are looking for their first start in the career, they're kind of aggressively just trying to get what they can. But you know, you might not know if it's a good fit for you, and you don't want to just rush into it. That's why it's always good to just reach out. If you can find someone, just ask, Hey, what's your experience, like? And you know, really focus on you know, there's the good, but then also what are the things you don't like? And that can help you like, avoid something that you might not like?

Ryan Burgess
That's true. Like, sometimes you can save yourself headaches, or you're like, oh, I want to go work at that company. And then you're like, actually, maybe I don't want to go work at that company.

Jem Young
I'll say one yes. It's good to know, to learn the insides of different companies that definitely talk to people, whether it be an after hours event or something like that. And you know, you really get into it, and they're like, Yeah, you don't want to work for this company. It's, it's it's not good or like I'm on my way out. You Ever Have you ever joined a company only to have the person who referred you like leave like six months later or something? like that, that's a case of like, maybe your connection wasn't as close as you thought, if they're gonna, they're gonna pull that on you. But yeah, in general, it's a good idea to have that you have your finger on the pulse of the industry, like the careers, your careers, what you're going to spend the next 20 3040 years of your life doing. It's a good idea to have connections into various parts, and not just tech, just in general, things that you find interesting people that are interesting, but if asked to be tech, it's good to have a broad set of people to be able to talk to and you have genuine connections with, I was just at a smashing cough. Were speaking in San Francisco, and I finally got to meet Adam Argyle, who we'd never met in real life, but like we instantly connected and we're like, Yeah, we could have, we would have been BFFs in a different life. We lived in the same city. But it's just so weird, like, we've connected over Twitter, and then like we met in real life, and the connection holds up. And that's such a great feeling. And there's there's nothing to it other than just genuine friendship. And those are those are really rare moments. Especially in this transactional world where everybody's like, Oh, where do you work? You know, every? If you ever been to a party in San Francisco, every party begins with Oh, where do you work again? Which, yeah, is we can do better than that. So I have more on networking. But I'll, I'll stop there. Yes, talk to people get to learn the inside scoop, is very helpful when you're making friends in network.

Cole Turner
So add, it's a really small industry. When I joined Netflix, I ran into five people from my old company within the first two years, and whether you're an engineer, a PM, some other role or function, it is such a small industry, and you will see people again, whether you met them on Twitter, whether you met them at work or at a conference and treat that as you would like that you are going to see these people again,

Ryan Burgess
it's a good way to put it to because you're right. Like you can also burn bridges pretty easily in a small community like that, too. So you don't want it to necessarily be super transactional, or icky feeling on that side. Because yeah, you want to build those longer term connections. Jim, I think it's so funny that you mentioned Adam Argyle. That was the first time I met him was that smashing comp, too. And, yeah, it's really funny that how you Twitter is one of those aspects. We've talked many times many episodes about networking, it it actually, to me feels like less icky is like Twitter's because you're not ultimately jumping on there to network, or at least that's not really been my thought on it. It's more, it is more passive. It's not, but you start to build these connections over time. And they are quite meaningful. Like, where I meet a lot of people. Yeah, cheers to connections. But yeah, they're they're pretty mean meaningful in the sense that like, you meet people for the first time in real life, and you've already spoken with them so much over Twitter. So I think that's always been a useful tool. What are other ways that you all find useful for networking,

Stacy London
I think we talked a little bit about like conferences and meetups, I think that was a big thing. And obviously, the pandemic put a dent in that for a while, but definitely tech conferences, and then I co ran a JavaScript meetup in the city I lived in prior to moving out to San Francisco. And like, that was huge for meeting all sorts of people in the community. And those are two really big ways for sure. For me,

Augustus Yuan
I'll throw in not not that I expect people to do it. But open source has always been a really cool way to network, especially in tech. Like, I can't exactly remember the context. But I had an internship where I had to contribute to some open source project, and I ended up running into the guy that worked on it and ended up you know, well, okay, I'll be honest, it didn't amount to much, but it was just like a really cool experience, you know, to like, meet someone that like you worked with, even though we never met. And I personally think it's like a good a good way to meet people that you know, and depending on what the open source project is, you know, could be front end could be back in, you never know who you'll run into. And like if you go to conferences or something like that, and then by then you've already built a connection. Cheers, cheers when ring a ding ding and so kind of with with that,

Jem Young
I like your take on open source, I guess is that's a good one. Not I'm not super heavily involved in that community, but it is pretty active and the people they're really passionate, which is a great way to to make connections over your shared passions. Overall, I'd say so I think some of the best ways of networking is to be an interesting person, which sounds like really weird, but like, do something, have merit or do something we're talking about with somebody else, rather than being like a has some consumer of like, open source or blogs or things like that, like build something, if it's terrible, and like connect with people over that I nothing is better than someone like getting really passionate, even especially early years people talking about like their open source project and the the challenges they work through and all that. And there, it could be a to do list app or something like that. But that passion makes me want to talk to them more, because like, Oh, if they're really excited about this, what else are they excited about? And like, you kind of need that enthusiasm. So that's always my advice is like, be an interesting person, like, be be solid, who people want to talk to you. That's the easiest way to network, honestly.

Ryan Burgess
Yes, I guess in that sense, Jim, too, it's a little bit of putting yourself out there too, is being vulnerable enough to talk about things that you enjoy, or, you know, share that with the world, whether it be through social media, or you know, talking about an event or something like that is like that could you know it's a hurdle. But just like knowing that, that's like, putting yourself out there can mean a lot

Cole Turner
another good way, if you're a bit more on the like, introverted side, like me or you, it took me a while to ever get in front of an audience. I hung out in forums and chat rooms. And that's another great way to connect with people who are seeking help. Or maybe they're that interesting person that jumps talking about. And, you know, while some people are interesting, other people are kind of like hype people. And sometimes that's me, I like to hype people up. And so that's another great way to connect with someone is take an interest in them take an interest in be curious about what they're doing. And passion just unfolds like that. And you'll connect in that way and build common interests. Yeah,

Augustus Yuan
I actually, I kind of just want to acknowledge that the way we network today, like five years ago, before COVID. And how networking happens now is very different. So I definitely acknowledge what maybe people go through like, but also I think there's a huge benefit nowadays. Like, there's a lot of online communities. Like, I think like every open source project has like a discord or slack organization. And there's just like so many opportunities to just hop into some chat room like Cole was mentioning, like online forums where you can meet people who have similar interests and connect and ever know where that will take you. I've actually had people who've, like, literally reached out to me on Reddit, like my Reddit account, where I'm just like beaming away posting, posting pictures of my dog, and but they'll find out that I answered some question in CS career question subreddit or something. And they'll be like, hey, ice, you seem like an engineer, like, it's just hoping you could give me some advice. And I always try to respond. That's really

Ryan Burgess
cool. And I do like to call out a boat pre COVID versus like, post COVID. World, it has changed. But I think some ways, it may have made it easier, in some sense, like, like you mentioned, Augustus, I think about even the fact that all of us got so used to jumping on video calls. And that to me, can be a powerful way to connect with people in the sense that, you know, even going back to my advice, if you're like wanting to like learn about a company, or that it doesn't have to feel so icky that you can jump on calls with people versus like it prior days, it might have just been like a phone call or something. You couldn't easily go grab coffee, but being able to like look at each other over a screen and kind of talk through that as people are more used to that. I think it helps build that connection. Cheers. Cheers. So I think a couple times, it's come up a little bit about successes that we've had, I would love to dive a little bit deeper on that, like, what are some success stories that you feel? Maybe it's getting a job or meeting certain people that have helped you in your career? Like, what are some success stories that you would share? For me?

Cole Turner
You don't know what you don't know. And you don't know what you don't know until you talk to other people and ask them like, Hey, here's what's on my mind. Can you tell me what you think? And it wasn't until I did some of this networking stuff like joining a Discord server or going on forums, that I even knew that I was being so severely underpaid and startups. And so it wasn't until I saw a job posting, but I moved across the country got a new job, new life, new cold new dog. And so you really just have to put yourself out there and like, be that vulnerable, like you said, right? And

Augustus Yuan
I'll say that I'm always very thankful that and you know, nowadays, like it's post COVID So take this with a grain of salt but I'm always pretty thankful that I was weird enough to try to go to these hackathons. And try it out. I felt like even though a lot of them, I failed that I learned a lot. And I met a lot of people along the way. And the one time that that I was able to do well, in one, it really opened a lot of doors for me. And, yeah, that's, uh, I'm, like, super thankful for that. I know, like, not everyone's gonna win a hackathon or something. But I would say like, like, if you have the opportunity, whether it's an online one or an in person, one, like just like, putting yourself in an environment where you have to work with others or work on a project, it could be literally anything, it doesn't even have to work. I'll be honest, I'll just shamelessly say that our project like our final result, we faked it till we made it and people people knew, but they were like, You know what, it's okay. Because it's the idea. It's not the actual implementation, like, even if that amount of time maybe you'll figure it out. But it's just the experience of working to others was very invaluable. And I met a lot of great people along the way to help get to where I am. Now,

Jem Young
I like the point on understanding how much you should be paid. Like that's, that's a pretty, pretty important one that I've done the same thing of like, wait a second, wait a second. I can get paid how much? And like, I just had no idea until I talked to people and like, made that connection were on that level. And they share that as like, Oh, wow. That definitely changed the course of my career. We've definitely told plenty of stories over the many many years of fronted happy hour of time at Riot at a conference by speaking and he's just like, yeah, you want to get lunch? But I think it would help to define networking, because we keep saying yeah, but we've never really talked about what, what it is like, what does it mean to network? Anybody want to take a crack at it?

Ryan Burgess
I mean, it definitely has something to do with our keyword in this episode. I mean, it to me it is like it's meeting people, and just understanding that person on a human level. And so you are technically gonna say it is you're making connections. Cheers, cheers.

Stacy London
And I think it's maybe more than just like, collecting a list of names of people that you meet, like one time and never really talked to ever again, it's like, the the, for me what networking is, is, like we talked about earlier is like actually making a real connection, having similar interests or being excited to talk to each other about things but then like, maintaining it, so don't just like, dropped off the face of the earth with that person. And then like, six years later, be like, Hey, can you recommend me for a job? Like we you know, it's like, that doesn't feel right and doesn't work. And so to me, that's not networking. That's just like, I don't know what that is. But yeah, collecting names. Expanding your LinkedIn network to like 7000 people. Pokey

Augustus Yuan
Pokey, LinkedIn,

Ryan Burgess
gotta catch them all.

Augustus Yuan
Gotta connect them all.

Cole Turner
I love that, Stacy. And when I talk to people about networking, I feel like the analogy I love to use is like gardening. I you start this garden, you plant some seeds, and you water it day over day so that it grows, it nourishes and i In the end, you hope to get something or I mean, whether or not you're treating it as a transaction, you you hope to see something bloom. And what happens if you just walk away from that garden and you don't water it for two, three or four weeks, it's going to wither and die. And that connection. Cheers is not going to mean much if you're not putting stuff back into it if you're not feeding it or watering it and so, I like that analogy because that to me, helps me in my mind crystal clear understands that yeah, you want this relationship because it is a relationship to grow and you want it to be built on a solid foundation.

Ryan Burgess
I like that What are some ways using the analogy of like watering the plants? What are ways in which you kind of keep a network or networking connection alive?

Jem Young
Cheers descending tiktoks Count.

Stacy London
Yes, sending memes to each other.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, absolutely. That is I would say that warrants it. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Augustus Yuan
I got a really good one. Get the people you want to network with a start a podcast. And each is

Ryan Burgess
interesting. I've never heard of that before.

Stacy London
Episode works

Jem Young
Uh, I like the memes one, like, we're laughing. But I appreciate when someone's like, Hey, Jeff, I saw this meme and it made me think of you and like, that's nice, you know, and it's pretty low stakes more than I expect that of anybody. And it's just like, yeah, they're thinking of me. And Cole, I really liked that analogy of tending the garden. And that's, that is absolutely true. One thing I've learned as being, being a parent is like relationships take work, friendships take work, you have to put in time, they don't just happen organically. So that means like, realistically, there's a there's a limit to how many friends you can actually have. If you're going to like actually be a good friend with them. But that doesn't mean professionally. You can't stay in contact with people see, they launch something and be like, hey, congrats on your team launching that. Or, Hey, I saw on LinkedIn, you got a promo, awesome, good work are really cheering for you. And like, that's all you need over the years, I think to maintain professional connections. Cheers. I just asked to be cheers, deep meaningful. How are your children doing? Tell me about your life goals, things like that. It just be pretty, pretty casual.

Stacy London
It's almost like somewhere in the middle. It's like, you don't want to send the like canned LinkedIn, you know, or that those buttons where you can click it to be like, congrats on the promo, you know, it's like, go somewhere a little bit better than that. That's like that you wrote it. And that not auto but generated. But yeah, you don't have to be like, go go into like, let's have a two hour conversation about where you are in life. It's like, two extremes. But you can go a little bit better than a bot.

Ryan Burgess
Well, will there be some point where AI is just doing all of our networking for us?

Stacy London
No, no.

Augustus Yuan
Cheese.

Ryan Burgess
What are some ways though, that I think that's a good one that Stacey mentioned. You know, just having that like auto click button words. It's not very meaningful. But like, what are some ways we're networking doesn't quite work like land like we've all had that right? Where we're at events, and someone comes up to you and talks to you or reaches out to you LinkedIn, Twitter, email, phone calls, I don't know, whatever, whatever mistakes that you've seen made, where it could help people do better at networking. We've said it is like, don't make it super transactional. Because then it's just like, okay, clear. You just want something from me. It's that doesn't feel great. But like, are there other things that you feel aren't a good way to approach networking?

Stacy London
One of them for me, that really creeps me out is when someone guesses my work email, somehow, and then sends me a message being like, Hey, just wanted to see if you'd like, you know, refer me or I'm interested, if you can tell me more about you know, Atlassian I'm like, I didn't give you this email. This is creepy. Like, this is not published anywhere. I don't like that, like that kind of approach really, really bothers me.

Augustus Yuan
I love that. Yeah, I've definitely received that. It's kind of creepy. But I'm like, Wow, huh. Pretty clever. How did they guess this, but one, one that I will add is, you know, even though you might make the best effort to try to network with someone can actually kind of like what Jim said, you know, especially, I'm also running into this into my part of my life, like, it's hard to maintain relationships, and find time. And I would say, don't take it personal. If someone just does not reciprocate. And it's not bad intentioned, you know, it just like be understanding that everyone can reciprocate the same amount that you might be able to give. Because, because, yeah, they just, they, you don't know what someone's going through in their life. And they honestly might not feel they can help you, and how you need and it's best to just kind of respect that. Because yeah, if anything, I'm even more likely not going to help. Like, I might just be busy. But if you're like, hey, whoa, are you serious? Like, I'm going to be like, I really don't want to help this person. Now. You know,

Cole Turner
yeah, I love that Augustus, because like, to make a garden grow, somebody's got to be watering it. And that could be you. That could be the other person, it doesn't mean you're both watering it at the same time. And that's how you keep it alive. By along those lines, like assuming not only like you have the time to help, but assuming you can help or you will help is another kind of pet peeve of mine. Like, for example, the worst kind of LinkedIn messages I get are, Hey, you don't know me, but please refer me to this position and Netflix, like, cool. I've got hundreds of those in my inbox right now. But why you specifically like what are you bringing that sets you apart from everyone else? And along those lines is kind of an impersonal aspect to networking I don't like where somebody will say hey, how's it going? How're you doing? It's been so long since we've talked, can you please get me a job? And I hate that, like, Don't bury the lead. Tell me what you want in the first minute. And if you want to chat afterwards, that's even better. Because like, now I know, not only like, are you invested in the relationship and the connection, cheers. But you're also watering it? And so like, that? Is it for me, like, Don't bury the lead, keep it, keep it personal. And don't take it personal, like Augustus, if it doesn't work at

Jem Young
all, at all that people cold reach outs when we haven't spoken in years? And they're like, can you give me a job? I'm like, Yeah, we may have known each other five years ago, but like, you've made no effort. And the first thing you do is like, can you refer me it? It doesn't feel great. Another one is, along those same lines, goal is people that assume you have to help them or like, hey, hey, help me with this thing. I'm stuck on this, or tell me about tell me about this. Or, like, I don't know, they make assumptions about your time where I'm like, the the office hours I hold are for the community benefit, but I don't have to do that. And I have other things I could be doing, like, you know, work. But I choose to spend my time doing this. I've had people get upset at me. They're like, oh, there's no slots in your office hours, open some more up. I'm like, this is a favor I'm doing for for you. It's like how I like to give back. But you know, stuff like that does not make me inclined to help out people in the future. And then the the overly aggressive, Hey, how's it going, like, too friendly, or I'm like, I don't really know, you either. It sounds like we're complaining. But I get a lot of messages. And I have to filter through all of them. And I feel bad when I can't help everybody. But I genuinely do not have time to connect with every single person that reaches out. So like Cole said, make your point early. And then I'll decide based on that, if I can make time to help you out. But sometimes I can. Sometimes I can't. Oh, this one. This one is really, really annoying on how one thing I really hate on what's going on networking. I've had, I've had conversations with people where they're at a conference or a meet up or something like that, and we're talking. And they're kind of like, disinterested, and like looking looking off like trying to get out of the conversation. And I'm just trying to be friendly. And then like someone will pop over like, oh, Jim, oh, yeah, you work at Netflix, blah, blah. And suddenly the other person is like, Oh, hey, I didn't know you worked at Netflix. And like, suddenly, I became a lot more interesting to them. And like, I can see it. I don't know why people think I wouldn't be able to see it. But this happens more often than I'd like, to the point where I stopped talking about I don't tell people where I work, because I don't want them to think that's the most interesting side of me. If it comes up later, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm the work of Netflix been there a while. Cool. And it's all good. But like opening with that I've seen makes a lot of false relationships. So I just don't do it anymore. And it's really disappointing when I see people only want to connect with people who work at Google or the fang companies or something like that, or

Ryan Burgess
for like Twitter followers and things like that, too. Like, I've definitely seen that where it's like that person has so many Twitter followers, I gotta go talk to them. It's like, Who gives a shit? Like, yeah, it's so funny. Jim, I can definitely agree with that feeling. I like kind of what Jim and Cole were saying too, about some of the like, incoming messages. I have very much similar feelings where it's like, I want to know what you're asking for, you know, fairly quickly in the message. But it also can't, you know, it's this weird balance that I'm hearing you say? And I'm like, Yeah, I agree with that. It's a weird balance, where it's like, I want it to understand it fairly quickly. But I also don't want to just have the message like, Hey, can you get me a job at Netflix? I'm like, oh, okay, like that. Doesn't really give me a lot to go off of either. But I also don't know, 30 Page message that I get. And I'm like, Ah, what are you asking for here? And that's also like, to me, is a tax on people. You're asking them to read a lot of information. And so I think that there's ways in which we can be more thoughtful in that and how we reach out to people. There's really great tools for that there's this thing called Chat GBT that will actually help you, like, make things more concise and clear. And I think that, why not leverage those types of things and like, make your you know, put thought into that message that's going out to people, I guarantee you will get more responses from it. You're not going to get response from everyone. That's like Jim said, his inbox is full. He's not going to he can't get to everyone. But it's like those types of things. You want your message to stand out. And so think about it is like when you're reaching out some people, whether or not they're lots of Twitter followers or not, it like could be just reaching out to someone on LinkedIn or through email. They're working. They have many other things that they're dealing with or they have families, they have outside things that are going on. And so to me, it's just like taking that extra little bit of work. To be thoughtful, and that message can go a long way. Call you mentioned being an introvert or that that's like been, you know, sometimes I feel like that's a good one to call out here, where people often are like, I'm introverted, I can't network. And so I'm curious, like, if that is trouble for people, like what advice would you all give someone who's a little bit maybe shy or not wanting to put themselves out there,

Cole Turner
I think what we often are afraid of, in addition to being vulnerable, is just fear of being judged and what other people are going to think about us. And when you take a step back and realize that, and that everybody's going through the same thing, it becomes a little bit easier. Because once you realize that everybody's human, like, I don't care how many Twitter followers you have, you're either someone I want to relate to, or you're someone I don't want to relate to, and find that common ground. Like, it could be as simple as like, Hey, I love that shirt. Where'd you get it? Or what's something cool you've worked on in the last two weeks? Or an interesting problem that you're working on? Now? Those kinds of questions just kind of open the door to a relationship, whether you're introverted or not.

Ryan Burgess
Also, I think cool. Like, sometimes we like to think that everyone's paying attention to you or like yourself, and it's like, they're not they have their own shit to think about too. So it's like, but that is hard. Because like you do worry about how you show up in the world. And that can, you know, that can definitely be a scarier thing to deal with or a barrier.

Jem Young
I think many people on this podcast, we would probably describe ourselves as introverted. I think I one, I think the whole introverted versus extroverted thing is kind of overblown. I think most people lean more on the introverted side, and there's a spectrum but especially in tech, we tend to be a more the introverted side. That doesn't mean you can't be social. It just means like, how you recharge your batteries. Is it by yourself? Or is it like a giant group of friends like that? That's it. I would say, if someone's like, Hmm, I'm, I'm introverted. I have trouble talking to people say, Okay, well, that's something you should work on. Because it is a skill. As you progress in your career. It doesn't matter if you're going tactical, to like staff, principals, title engineer or management, you have to talk to people. There's no avoiding that. And if you can't do that, you will shortchange yourself and your career, you'll be stuck at a certain level. Because everybody like, oh, this person is brilliant, but I never know what they're thinking. So I'd say like, if you have trouble networking, it's something to work on. It's it's definitely underrated as a skill, but like, like the panelists are saying, find some common ground, everybody, your your do something, even if you just stay at home, smoke weed and play video games. Lots of people don't like doing that to lots of us play video games. People click poking on, people, cliques are really in the cars, people are really in the Legos. Everybody has some some passion they're there about and like, share that with other people. And naturally, people will gravitate towards you. If you're they can tell you what you're into.

Stacy London
Yeah, I think like maybe the introvert stuff is, sometimes you think about it, like, Oh, I'm standing in a room and I just have to like meander up to some random person and start a conversation and who knows what the topic will be. And that sounds all stressful. It's like, well, that's like a very weird sort of networking scenario. Most of them, you hopefully are like, doing some sort of shared experience, like you're, you went to see, you know, a particular Tech Talk and someone has a there's a topic and maybe afterwards, you can like, talk more deeply about that. So like you don't have to cold walk up to someone and just start talking. Like, that's just that is awkward for almost everyone. So I think like as long as you have like a shared experience you could start with and then it just sort of can flow from there.

Ryan Burgess
I love that. Yeah, like because it is connecting, like on an interest or even just like if you are at that conference or event. It's like, Hey, would you all think about how that I don't know, JavaScript rendering was happening. I don't know, whatever it is like you can kind of build off that. Another thing I learned actually, I don't know. It was a couple of months ago at React Athan react Athan had this in their rules for the conference was a rule called the Pac Man rule. I had never heard of it. And I was the emcee introducing these rules. And so I did actually find out right before what that meant. I had never heard of it before. But I love it. It's like even as you were like, if if all of us the five of us were talking at a conference is almost make yourselves inviting in a sense where that's the Pac Man rule is that you kind of are in a circle but kind of leaving it a bit open like the most of the Pac Man to almost leave room for others to kind of pop in still hard to do. You know, being that person to be that one person walking up to four or five people, but I really liked that was just like being a little more aware. Are that like you're opening up body language for others to join the conversation.

Stacy London
I love that. And one thing I like to do too, is just to keep my eyes open. If I see someone standing by themselves, because I go to I've gotten a lot of conferences or things that I don't know, a single person, and it is hard to just meander around. So like I tried to read, I don't know, return the favor, like I'm trying to open that door to so if I see someone meandering by themselves, or kind of like, inching close to a group that kind of just standing there or like, invite them in or like, say, like, Hey, what's up, or, you know, and kind of invite them in? Be kind.

Ryan Burgess
Like that being kind goes a long way. Maybe before we dive into pics, like, let's give a piece of advice. If you've maybe never met someone, and you do want to approach them with it and to meet them. How do you do that? Maybe it's at a conference, maybe it's online, I would love a piece of advice from all of you, that would make it easier for folks to go connect with someone be authentic.

Jem Young
I believe that very, very, truly, you should always be authentic to yourself. And that means Yeah, 99% of people out there, you're probably not not going to walk off become friends with that's okay. You don't have to be friends with with the world. I think accepting that is like important to being a well rounded adult, trying to make people like you or thinking you've succeeded or failed based on number of people that, that like you or follow you on Twitter, or whatever metric you want to use is not it's not healthy. But if you're genuine and you, you're like, Hey, I'm really passionate about really gnarly TypeScript problems. And like, this is what I nerd out on in the evenings. Yeah, most people aren't gonna be interested in that, but you'll find one or two, and you'll make that genuine connection. And that's, that's really what it's about is like finding that, that level that you that you, you know, connect on, seriously, be genuine, be authentic.

Stacy London
A piece of advice, I guess, don't be, don't be a creeper, try and read body language. If you can tell that someone is you know, maybe they're like, keep backing up from you, or they're like not paying attention, or whatever that body language is, they're not looking you in the eye. All of that pay attention to that, that stuff matters. And like, don't force it.

Augustus Yuan
For me, I would say, if you're the type of person who gets kind of anxious, and kind of what cold call is saying, like, you're the type of person who's like, kind of scared to like, go out of your comfort zone, have some funny advice my brother gave me. I was like, really nervous to go to college. And I was like, literally crying to him like a Alex Williams if no one likes me. I was like, no one wants to be my friend. And my brother got really fed up a went to me, it's like Augustus, if somebody came up to you and said, Will you be my friend? Would you say no? I said, No. He said, good. So just do that to every single person in college. And I'm sure one person will have the same mentality as you and will be your one fret. So the takeaway is it to do that, but I think it's just like to understand that, you know, people have the same reasons to like that work just as much as you. And if you put yourself out there, there's going to be someone that kind of aligns with your interests and wants to get to know you just as much as you want to get to know them. So, you know, take that leap. And, yeah, follow some of the advice we've been saying.

Ryan Burgess
I guess, did you make friends, I did make friends.

Cole Turner
I managed to make friends. I love that so much. Because like, that really is the barrier to a lot of this is just assuming that it's going to go south or assume like your anxiety just gets the best of you. And something that was said to me many years ago, one of my first speaking opportunities, which really helped me was assume that everybody wants to see you succeed. Assume that everybody wants to be your friend. Because at that point, you're going to like It's like pouring a glass of water. If you try and do it kind of like half assed, you're going to spill water everywhere. But if you pour the water full confidence, as if it could get anywhere, which I just spent water all over my table, then you're gonna make friends, because you're going to project that and I know that sounds easier. So just try it like do Augustus thing who's gonna say no. And if you run out of ideas, get a dog and just go up to people and say, Hey, you want to see a picture of my dog? And literally nobody has ever said no. So I take that.

Ryan Burgess
People love dogs. I love that. Another thing I was thinking about while you're all talking for conferences that I really like is, you know, oftentimes you're sitting beside people, right? Like you're all going to sit down for or talk. And there's always that like, small amount of time before the talk actually starts. You know, it doesn't take much to lean over to like your person on the left or right of you and just say like, Hi. And like, hey, what? Where do you do? Or, you know, I know, Jim, you don't like that, like, what do you work on or whatever. But I think like some sort of small talk can go a long way that just that simple thing, which is really good. Cool. Well, let's dive into pics. In each episode of the front end happier podcast, we'd like to choose pics of things that we found interesting and want to share with all of you. In this episode, let's start with Augustus, what do you have for us? Cool,

Augustus Yuan
I have two picks. One kind of two picks kind of built in. But if you haven't watched Spider Man across the spider verse, I highly recommend. But my pick is actually this Lego trailer. So I don't know if people know there's a scene in the movie that's uses Legos. And that scene was directed by animated by a 14 year old kid. And he got discovered for making these LEGO SpiderMan things. And so the director reached out to him. And so the video I linked is like, he kind of improved the original one he did like in 4k because he got this big gig. And it's just like such a cool story to hear this 14 year old kid, like making it big, you know. So check that out. And then my second pick is a game called view finder. It's not out yet, but there's a demo on Steam. It's just a very, very cool, innovative game where you have this camera and you take a picture and you solve puzzles because once you take that photograph, it will create like a 3d rendition of what you what picture you took. And you can solve these puzzles in a really interesting way. I just thought it was very innovative.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. Stacy, what do you have for us?

Stacy London
Got one music pick for tonight. Just like how networking can take a while the name of the song is time takes a while by Daniel Avery. It's some recent release of some besides a bonus material. And it's kind of a dream Scapy electronic track that it's good for to listen to while you could

Ryan Burgess
write on Jim, what do you have for us?

Jem Young
I've got three picks. Now. Ryan, you just remind me of one of the picks. The first pick is a documentary show on Netflix called Tour de France unchained. I really so only like you know, amatory cycles very, very rarely, I used to do a lot more seeing like the story of the Tour de France and the teams and the the people involved is just unbelievable. Like how they push, they push the bounds of like what humans can do. And it's really it's, I love like the how it's strategy. It's like realtime strategy playing out on the road. And these people are writing like 100 something miles, every single day for 2021 days. And it's all about like discovering the limits of your own mental mental self as long and physical self. And it's like, having that deep understanding of how far you can push yourself. And when it's just like fascinating to the more I learned about Tour de France and professional cycling, like how complex it is, and how, how in touch and with their bodies that these writers are like peak physical form. And it's just all about pain and suffering. And like, you know, you're facing this mountain where you're, you're climbing like 234 or five miles up a mountain at a race speed. Like it's just gonna hurt. And that's all it's about is just like pain and the mental strength to overcome that, knowing that this won't kill you, even though your body's screaming that it will it just pushing through that but doing that every single day. It's just It's absolutely incredible, like what what humans are capable of. So Tour de France on Shannon's pretty, pretty solid documentary series, if you haven't learned anything, or see anything, go cycling. The next one is a book that I've read before and has been recommended on the show. But I've recently come back to it on recommendation from my manager, actually, because I was like, you know, I I'm looking to grow my career. You know, I want to see like, what does it take to become a director in software engineering, but my problem is like, I don't really know what they do. And he's like, have you read the managers path? And I was like, Yeah, I have. And he's like, but did you read pass the manager part? And I was like, No, I didn't. I stopped there. Because that was the relevant piece. So I'm coming back to this book and now and about two years over two years as manager, I'm learning so much more. Like the the words mean a lot more to me now that I've experienced it versus before when I read the book, I wasn't yet a manager. So definitely worth picking up. Book up so much good advice in it. And my final pick is a movie that Uh, I happen to see with Ryan, Fast and Furious 10 We saw it in theaters, we actually saw it during render, we had the choice of going to an after party, or be introverts and go see a movie and we chose the introvert route of go to see a movie, which was okay. I don't know what to say about Fast and Furious 10 It's, it's like, I don't know, it like plays on itself. And it's ridiculousness, they like acknowledge how how like absurd the whole universe is, which is, it's fun in a way. I really liked him because they just like trot out guest stars, just like every action person eventually will be in a Fast and Furious film. At some point. The plots ludicrous, the action is ludicrous. You know, the rules of physics are bets. Actually, there's broken. They don't seem understand that traction is the main thing on a car and not the horsepower. But yeah, that doesn't matter and Fast and Furious. So that's a pretty, pretty fun romp. And Jason Momoa is pretty, pretty charismatic villain in the film, so yeah, it's fun. If you're into the Fast and Furious franchise, it

Ryan Burgess
wasn't one of the worst ones either. Like I feel like it's it's good.

Jem Young
I think the worst ones are when they try to make it like a real serious action movie. Yeah, like, I think the middle the middle ones like six, seven. Yeah, it's like just embrace that you live in this alternate universe where things like the the laws of physics don't apply to you, and have fun with it. And that's really what fast and furious about just like, having fun with it with cars.

Ryan Burgess
I also love that you call that ludicrous. Like I'm like, Yeah, ludicrous, isn't it, Jim? Bad joke. Awesome. Cool. What do you have for us?

Cole Turner
My two picks today, my first pick is crucial conversations tools for talking when the stakes are high. This book was recommended to me a few years ago, and I listened to it as an audiobook and fell in love with the messages and the tactics and tips that the book gives you to engage in very difficult conversations, the kinds of conversations I used to run away from because I have anxiety and I'm sometimes introverted. And this book can help you if you're dealing with tough conversations at work at home, in your relationships of any kind. And really, it's about how do you create safety? And how do you establish the same pool of meaning, so that what you're saying and what you're hearing is what the other person is saying and what they're hearing. And I've found it's really helped me, it's helped me overcome some struggles with my anxiety and dealing with tough conversations. So that I always know to take a step back and think, are we on the same page? are we feeling safe in this conversation? And my second pick is as somebody who in their adult life has leaned off of alcohol and prefers other kinds of delights and vices I really like this company called can they have a social tonic with cannabis? That is five milligrams. I'm drinking one right now. And it's honestly my favorite replacement for alcohol because I never feel bad afterwards. And it allows it fits within my lifestyle. And so if you're looking for a great alcohol alternative, you can check out cam

Ryan Burgess
right on I have two picks for this episode. I have a TV show on peacock actually called based on a true story. Funny enough, it's a like murder show and a podcast tied together, which I feel like I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like I've seen quite a few shows lately, where somehow they're making a podcast and it's been about murder shows. I've seen a few lately where that's a thing. And I was kind of laugh. I'm like, Alright, I guess this is like a thing. So but it was a good show. I really enjoyed it. I just finished watching it. So I highly recommend checking that one out. And then a very serious pick for you all is I don't know about you all. But like when I was a kid, I really liked having balloon fights like water balloon fights. That was a lot of work. Like it ended up not being that much fun. By the time you were ready to do it. You'd already taken so much time blowing up balloons. Well, there's these amazing balloons out there now called Pancho balloons, which you just hook up to the tap and it it fills up maybe like 40 or 50 balloons. I don't remember the exact number all at once full of water and it's done. I've been having a lot of fun with my kids having water balloon fights lately. So highly recommend those. You won't be disappointed. Especially it's summertime right now

Cole Turner
seems like a great way to network. Oh,

Ryan Burgess
I like it. All right. Well, thank you all for listening to our episode on networking. We like to network and you know you can find us on Twitter at front of age age. You can listen subscribe to us on really whatever you like to listen to your podcasts on. You can also find us at front end happier.com Any last words?

Stacy London
Don't take yourself too seriously. Just say hi. Cheers. Cheers.