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Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a new episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast. It's actually been a while since we've done a recruiting episode, it's one we've covered a few times. And I think it's always always valuable information that we end up sharing and probably one of our more popular topics that we've covered. So guess what we're recovering or curating, and interviewing again, which is awesome. In this episode, we are joined by Taylor and John O to talk with us about recruiting and really how it's changed over the past couple of years reminder, we are still somewhat in a pandemic, and things have changed Taylor and John Oh, can you give brief introductions of who you are, what you do and what your favorite Happy Hour beverage is?

Jono Grayson
Okay, I guess I'll lead it off. Jono Grayson, I've been in recruiting for about 12 years, 11 years got that makes me feel old. And I started off in the agency world, worked at a staffing agency for about five and a half years, I've always been in the tech space and focused on I guess, like a handful of skill sets, engineers, product managers, designers, even like help desks and desktop support folks, too. And then yeah, about five and a half years into the career was like, you know, I got to go in house. For different reasons. We can talk about that. You know, later on the podcast got it got a chance to work at Apple work at Hulu. I worked at Lyft. And now at Netflix, happy to be here. Thanks.

Ryan Burgess
Thanks for coming. Taylor?

Taylor Desseyn
I'm just super stoked that John was here cuz I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, I've always wanted to talk to more recruiters and recruiters. And I bet even backstage before you know, we set this thing live, quote, unquote, I can tell tell John gets it. So I'm super excited for this conversation. But my name is Taylor. Destin, I'm based in glorious Nashville, Tennessee Music City Central, even though I hate country music. So we're not talking about that. And so basically, I've been recruiting for 10 years going on 11 this year. So John and I, we got some years behind us. And and basically, I focus on engineering, recruiting, I've been focusing focus on engineering recruiting now for seven, eight years, my tagline is like, I think I've met over 5000 developers now at this point in my career, I lead a remote engineering division here out of the national office, where I help with clients across country from startups to you know, you know, enterprise clients, staff up, you know, high powered engineering teams, and then really big on content. I have to do a shameless self plug. I have a morning show guidance counselor, 2.0. I've had Jem and Ryan, I'm going to have John are now on it. And so I do that to really help give back to people because I think what we're going to talk about today, I think this topic is incredibly important. No one wants to talk about it. People know how to how to really talk about it and have an organic conversation. So you know, incredibly thrilled to be here with you guys.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. Thanks for joining. And I don't think either of you answered, but your favorite happier beverage. Now I forgot.

Taylor Desseyn
So I'm drinking coffee right now. But I have to say this decaf by the way. It's 415 Central. If I drink caffeinated, I would come hunt you all down in California. But basically mine is like I'm a big one guy. I'm not a snobby wine guy. But I do love some wine. Specifically, anything from Austria. If you like whites, or if you want to try white wines. Austrian whites are fantastic. I

Ryan Burgess
would agree. I feel like I've had a few Australian whites and I don't even like white. So good. All right,

Jono Grayson
I gotta try some Austrian whites. I tell I'll take you up on that. I would say my my beverage of choice would be gin and tonic. Specifically Hendrix and Thai. So right now I'm I'm drinking a Lacroix but

Taylor Desseyn
that's usually a job. I'm gonna say I'm gonna get your address and I'm going to send it I am going to send this you can hold me to it. There is a gin out of South Carolina called hat trick gin. It is a it's like made with more lemons and oranges, and is the best thing I've ever had. So I'm gonna I promise you, I'm going to send it to you. And I think that will become your favorite.

Jono Grayson
Taylor did we just spend

Taylor Desseyn
100% It's also a bribe, so that you join. It's also a bribe. But to show we are already there.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, well, let's also give introductions of panelists today. I mean, jam. It's you and I but

Jem Young
started off. I'm young engineering manager at Netflix.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm a software engineering manager at Netflix. In each episode of the front end, Happy Hour podcast. We like to choose a keyword that if it's mentioned at all, in the episode, we will all take a drink. What do we decide today's keyword is compensation, compensation, which I mean when anytime we're talking about recruit jacked up on jobs interviewing. Oh, yes, it will definitely get to that. So I'm sure a compensation will come up many times. Let's hop in. I mean, I alluded in the intro that like things have changed right. Recruiting has definitely changed And I would love to hear all of your thoughts on what has changed in the past two years, like, how have people had to adapt? I'm just fascinated

Taylor Desseyn
with what John was gonna say. So man, you go for it, cuz I'm fascinated with what you're gonna say,

Jono Grayson
Man, I feel like Taylor, like you're building me up. And I feel like all I'm going to do is I'm gonna disappoint our listeners. But I guess a couple things that I've noticed over the past couple years. So one of my teammates actually here at Netflix, she shared this article a few months ago. And I think the biggest change over the past years in recruiting is like the competitive landscape. And article that she shared, it was actually this is the first time ever that there's more recruiting jobs available in the market, than there are software engineering roles. And this was a stat on LinkedIn. And I actually had to pull it up because I didn't know if maybe Taylor was gonna call me on this. But I think it's uh, right now it says worldwide. As of August, there were 364,000 recruiter jobs on LinkedIn, relative to 342,000, software engineering roles. You've seen this just like crazy shift in demand for recruiters. Obviously, I'm sure agencies are getting blown up too. But I never thought that I would hear that, right. I think I mentioned I've been in the recruiting space for 12 years. And I've always wanted to be an engineer like God, there's so in demand, right? Like, if I could just get if I get if I can go back and do all over again, get a CS degree, I would be an engineer, but it was it was incredible to see that stat. So that's the first piece I would say that the other piece I was talking to somebody from this is actually candidate for our talent Intelligence Team. And I was asking them about, you know, just the market and how hot it is. And he asked the question, he was like, hey, you know us in the analyst space, we've been asked the question, Where did everybody go? And he said that there's three, like significant shifts that have caused this like, supply and demand issue in the talent space. He said, One, there's this hyper acceleration of baby boomers that are retiring. He said, previously, it was about 2 million per year now it's about 3 million per year, something like that, or I forget what the cadence was. The other piece is Gen Z, where I shouldn't say we because millennials, Gen Z, but Gen Z, they're not coming into the workforce, at the same rate as other generations. And actually, then the third piece, he said it was actually the under replacement rates of birth rates. He said, we've been we've been on pace for like 50 or 60 years. So there's a lot of a lot of forces out there working against us. I'm so glad

Taylor Desseyn
you went first because that was so methodical, and so kind and I'm just gonna say, shits lit. I mean, like, like, like nothing, nothing eloquent whatsoever, shuts off the chain, but, and also, I saw that we can curse on this, which is great. My mom watches my live shows. So I can't curse that.

Jono Grayson
Let's get down. Yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
I mean, it's Lord, where to start? You know, I saw that stat, the other not that stat. But like, somebody posted the other day that like, recruiters are more or recruiters are, should be more demanded developers, I think, talents at all time premium. You know, salaries are going up. I think the big thing that's really changed in the recruiting landscape, his agencies are getting thrashed right now. Agencies are getting nuts. Oh, so because in house companies can pay more, right? I mean, essentially, my compensation was because of this new kind of practice lead thing. Oh, yeah. There we go. House. So good. Cheers, cheers, cheers. Agencies can't pay enough. Because the way we're set up and Jonno can agree with this. It's primarily commission, right. And there's that we're, we're so wired to go hunt every day. And I'm not saying that John was out there hunting too. But there's just an element of this, like, Major, like sales mentality with us to try to survive. And what's happening is, is that we're dealing it with it within within vaco right now, where a lot of our B players, even some of our like, lower a players, right? I mean, we talk about, you know, hiring and growing teams, like you need to have some key players, there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But a lot of our B players who really, really produce well for us are getting picked off. Right, so So what's happening in the software space right now, with everything, you know, developers going which way and not staying super long, it's exactly what's happening in the recruiting space as well. I mean, literally, just like John said, it is a one to one software to recruiting and kind of everything software, seeing the recruiting industry seeing it right now, too. It's, it's it's nuts,

Ryan Burgess
you know, and I wanted to just call out something to that hearing the difference between like, we talked about agency or in house for recruiting and I've worked with both like as a manager, I've worked with the agency work but I've also worked internally and that was one thing that I think Taylor you really called out for me thinking about it is like the way like we would maybe work with John Oh, he spent a lot more time like trying to find the right candidate not saying that the agency world's not finding the right candidate, but it's it is a numbers game when you're like, wow, I gotta close something because it becomes so much on the cushion. Mission races. And oftentimes, that's why companies are hiring you is for that immediate speed. Like, it's like, we're throwing you at this. We're like you don't care ran within time. That's a cool way to put it.

Jem Young
As I sit down, or illegal drugs, one of the two,

Taylor Desseyn
immediate quick, quick, hire me, like I've ever leaving vaco that's my new slogan. If you need a quick hit, hire Taylor this and I don't

Jem Young
know, so prognosticating a bit into the future. So there's what I'm hearing is there's a lack of talent in the recruitment talent area. And from what you're saying, tailor, there's less space in your area as well, because they're all everybody's moving to like the bigger companies or, like in house companies. So can we expect to see more people enter, like the talent workforce, or the talent recruiting side of things from like other industries, per se? And I have a point on going with this, but I don't want to like, I don't know, we're gonna we're gonna get a little contentious here, just because like, I represent the engineering side, and like talent and engineering and, you know, reputation. Yeah. Wait, so

Taylor Desseyn
what are you asking?

Jem Young
So do you expect you expect to, like, we can expect a lot more people to join into the recruitment workforce that like, haven't been in the flow? It's like the tech and yeah, stuff like that. Yeah.

Taylor Desseyn
And that's why most of us suck, right? I mean, I mean, that's why the recruiting industry is fucking terrible. Because it's like, straight up, like, none of us know what the hell we're doing, because we have to train all these young folks. And there's other young folks like even old folks, right? Like, it doesn't matter. The end of the day, we don't know what we're talking about. Because people are just trying to find bodies like hey, here, just trying to recruit JavaScript, you know, react, how many years are reactive? How many do you have AWS? Right, and it's like, lambdas. On the resume. It's like, no, your shit, dude. Right? So it's like, that type of thing. That that was my like, techie nerdy thing right there. But all that being said, Yeah, I mean, I this week, I mean, literally, I was on a call today with a nonprofits. And I'm going to try to like, help them stand up a tray sourcing recruiting program to train. And like, their mission is to help people who are incarcerated, right, get back on their feet. I was like, listen, like, this is a wonderful way, like, so many people are needing recruiting talent. And it's such an easy industry to get into if you love people. And like you have great communication skills, right? And you just want to love it. Like, this is the industry to do that. And I think another reason why there's no, there's not a lot of recruiting talent right now, like John has said, as well. But I didn't know what a recruiter was. Yeah, no, no one talks about recruiting, like, like, if I was in college, I would have been like, a piece out. Like, literally, I would have probably left college. If I knew recruiting was like, I don't need College. Let's go recruit, learn learn shit, right. And so I think that's another reason why there's a shortage in recruiting talent.

Jono Grayson
Plus, just to double click on that real quick, right? Like you think about most engineers, and not all but most engineers, right? You can go and you can get a CS degree, right? You can even get an E, you know, degree, whatever it is. And then right, you've developed this, like foundational knowledge of whatever your skill set is. Same case for marketing, same case for design work, right? But when it comes to recruiting, you just like you gotta hope that you got a good teacher, right? Or a good company that has a great thing really. Like I feel like I was so fortunate to join TEKsystems they invested a lot in their training program and it was a full like manual that you're going through it's like three months of onboarding you fight they flew us out to where were we at? We went to Kansas City for this like week long and we're sitting home with other people. It was the best barbecue ever shout out dude,

Taylor Desseyn
I spoke at Casey DC this year, that barbecue, I don't I don't know, hey, but you're saying crazy shifflett It's great.

Jono Grayson
And then you and then the best part about it, is you have the itis afterwards, right? You want to take a nap as soon as you get it in. But anyway, going back to the training program, you fly out to Kansas City, there's a week long training program you're paired up with people from across the country who were the same 10 years you that are going through the same type of imposter syndrome and struggles and you can talk through it and you can roleplay and then you come back and then it's like okay, you know you're out in the world you can recruit now. So yeah, I think that's you know, just a plus one Taylor what you said the reason for the slow entrance of new recruits into the workforce

Jem Young
so like knowing understanding now from from what you're all saying data and just general on the ground insights that you have, we know that the market is about be won't say flooded. There'll be a lot of low quality recruitment out there because I think it's easy to view it as a sales job and to some degree it is almost especially if you're getting paid by the head you're just like it's a numbers game just like any other sales job we're gonna get another flat of that low spray and pray email dear candidate insert name like we're hiring for whatever like what collectively as a tech industry so not just on you all like what what can we do to avoid this coming catastrophe like we know it's coming we can see it's coming but like how can we make this better and like improve these relationships? And sorry, this is like, not something we had like product. Oh,

Jono Grayson
go ahead. John, oh, man, I have very strong thoughts. But I mean, I feel like honestly tailor what you're doing with that nonprofit is one way to solve for that, to build out proper training programs that people can can learn and understand like the right fundamentals, the right way to build a network, the right way to go about recruiting and not this like, transactional process of like, hey, you need a job, I got a job, great, you got a job. Now I got you right like that, it can so easily get into that. And I think going back and I can't think the agency that I worked for, so shout out tech systems, I can't thank them enough. Because I think one thing that they instilled is recruiting it truly is like a networking, right in and relationship building, you know, job, where, you know, I would reach out, I was trained to reach out to people of like, Hey, I know you have a job. But just here's my point of contact, here's my contact information. 612 months, nine months down the road, whenever three years down the road, if you your friend, your your your mom, your sibling, whatever it is, needs a job. Think of me. And we would take people out to lunch just to get to know them. And it was this really like, really like strong relationship building process. And it was it. Of course, it was competitive. We had metrics, right? Like, we I saw my commission number every day, right? We had this board that showed everybody admission about wrong, but it's right, and you feel that pressure. But how you get to those numbers. It was by building relationships. And I think again, Taylor, exactly what you're doing with that nonprofit. Hopefully, that'll solve, right, that's like a micro session to it. But if we can do that on a, you know, at scale, like that changes the

Ryan Burgess
game, what John said, Absolutely. Like, I think I'm a huge, huge believer in networking, I think it's so so important. And sometimes it's that long haul, like it doesn't pay off immediately, especially when you have that commission staring you in the face, that's got to be tough, but I think it ends up paying off it you invest in, it pays off. But I also want to say, Taylor, I think what you are doing just even the content that you're putting out there is so beneficial to everyone, like I see it in for like beneficial for engineers that are anyone applying for jobs, like you've talked about, like bulking up the resume Be thoughtful around that. But I think it just also demonstrates like that networking effect, and also just like, hey, I want to help others, you're building a community around it. And I think those are the types of things that are going to help anyone new to the industry, you know, and engineers. But absolutely, we're talking about recruiters joining, they can look to that content go, oh, I never thought of that. Or oh, that is worthwhile to pay off in network and things like that. So I think things like that even have 10x effect. There's so great. They help so many people. Yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
well, thank you for that. I mean, my my tagline is recruiter against recruiters for a reason, right? Like, I understand that I'm a recruiter, but I'm against the traditional way of recruiting because it's so bad. And I think to answer this question, until agencies can chill and like start allowing people to connect with people and view people as people instead of numbers, the industry won't change until that happens. And it's so difficult. And you have to have founders and C suites that understand now here's the deal, right? vaco I think we're a unicorn, like we're a billion dollar, I think we were recently valued at a billion dollars, right? Like, like, you get to a certain point where you can't do that. And I understand that however, you can still it's trickle down right from the top, you know, all the way down. I have been blessed with incredible amount of mentors. I've been blessed with an amazing management team that supports everything I'm doing. And I also have a vision of what I want to build and and really moving forward as I want to wrap my arms around the whole entire engineering community in the US, right, like, that's my goal until I die. And and but like you have to be wired to help people. And the only way this industry is going to change is if people focus on people and not the numbers.

Ryan Burgess
I think I completely agree. I think it's you know, that's the thing is like building that long term network. And or, you know, even to what Jem said, I think alluding to is like, you know, we're on the engineering side, we've been in the position where we're in demand, always. And that's been so awesome for so many ways. Like, I don't want to complain about it at all. I think it's amazing to be in demand and have all these options. But then when we see the recruiters stuff when they're like an email getting sent to you, Hey, Ryan, come join our back end team doing Java, which I've done java in the past, but I actually purposely don't have that on my resume when I'm applying to like a front end role, because that's not what I'm working on, or even getting requests to join as a as an engineer, like as an Icee. It's like now I've been in management for so many years that I'm like, did you even look at my resume or like look at my LinkedIn. And so I think there's those little things Get you know can go a long way of just like spending a little time and putting that little effort out and so I love hearing well

Taylor Desseyn
and I think too I think and in jabi interest hear your take as well because there is so there's two sides of recruiting right there's the tech side you have to know tech right to do it well you have to know that and and even I would argue and say you have to be pretty technical. Like I feel good enough to sit in an engineering conversation with CIOs VPs of engineering and talk at a super high level right like that's that's where I'm at now. Maybe I'm gonna get blasted and then Jem's gonna throw some shit at me I've never heard before but I feel that comfortable. The other side of it is the networking side. And that is where we really fall short because what's happened is a traditional way of recruiting and Gianna can test this with with Texas, right? It's good on Indeed, it's good on dice. Let's get on CareerBuilder. It's good on LinkedIn recruiter, its message message message message message, II know what my team is trying to do. Literally, I had a one on one with my, my main recruiter this week, he goes, I want to get off all that because what other what other avenues Can I look at? And we were talking about Pluralsight, we were talking about pollywog, we were talking about, you know, he wants to basically develop a mentor ship as a service, right? Because there's a huge need in the software space for mentorship. So all that being said, I think the networking side and the biggest, the networking side, just a huge piece. And the biggest advice that I want to give to people who listen this in the future is especially recruiters, the best piece of advice I've ever had is go to meetups or go to networking events and keep your mouth shut. That's the best.

Ryan Burgess
Like, I love that you brought up the networking events, though, too, because like to me like going back to what's changed that one I struggled with a lot early in the pandemic, I think I'm still struggling with it. But I loved going to whether it be meetups or conferences, because I got that personal connection. Like I was able to talk with folks and say like, what are you working on? Like, what are some of the challenges you're dealing with? And like, you can have a legitimate conversation with people. And it ends up sometimes those relationships that you build that those conferences end up turning into someone to come like work on your team and join. That's awesome. And with the panda kidding, that was tough virtual conference happened, like we have virtual conferences, so good that we've gotten to that I can still see amazing tech conference talks. But there's no hallway conversation. There's no like, hey, let's grab lunch or let's grab a coffee. Let's grab that talk. Yeah, grab a gin and tonic Right? Like it those types of things I really struggled with. And still do. I think there are areas where Twitter, I really enjoy Twitter and can learn and have some of those conversations. But it's it's just hard to find those areas. And it hasn't been quite figured out yet if we are all remote,

Jem Young
and that's where engineers are, we're so reliant on the Talent Team and the recruiters, because it's to add to like, the third piece of your point, Taylor, which is like the recruiter is that that the talent person is that missing link between the engineer and the company, and they can help break down like, hey, you know, I'm looking for a really chill culture, I've got four kids, I don't need to work like 10 and 10pm every night. And the recruiters like, Hey, I've got a few roles that look like that, versus a good recruiter will, the bad recruiters like, yeah, now it's gonna be really cool, though. They're cool with that. And then you get in there. And it's like, they're just burning people out left and right there. It's that relationship part. But it's like a two way relationship. It's like you the talent person, that's the engineer, with the recruiter, the recruiter with the company. And like, in the middle, the really good ones can tell you all about that. And like, hey, this company, they're gonna work pretty hard, but on the latest tech stack, and it's hot, and they are going places versus this company, you know, they're stable, you're gonna have a job in a couple of years. They know what they're doing. They're, they're not growing very quickly, but like, they're pretty chill, that's what you're looking for. And that's kind of what I miss with meeting people in person is like, you get that. And you have to establish these relationships virtually via Twitter or LinkedIn or something like that, to me, I know, I, you know, I get on recruiters a lot, because the industry, you know, it's bad. It's but but the good ones that like will save your butt and like, are really just good people to know, and they stick with you. But like you're saying it's all about that relationship over time. Not that like quick hit quick sales.

Ryan Burgess
So I think that's a great segue into something that's been on my mind is, you know, things have changed. But then we've talked about the recruiting side of it. Now, how do engineering candidates stand out? I think that that's maybe been harder, because maybe they're relying on going to the conferences or going to meetups or networking events. How do candidates stand out? They're still in demand, but like, how do they get your attention as a recruiter?

Taylor Desseyn
I want to hear this too, especially from a net Netflix side. Because like, you know, I've interviewed Jem and Ryan on my show, like I understand kind of what they look for, but I would love to hear what you what you guys look for on the recruiting side.

Jono Grayson
I think one thing that I've noticed as become more of a trend over the years, is I think engineers having a specialist session or focus. And I think breath is is great, but I think depth, right? Because as as technology evolves and expands, right, and there's, there's new problems that exist, right or that are created, right is there's there's new tools. And so that like ability to like, find your way into that groove, that new technology, that new problem space, right, like that new GAP, whatever it is, and your system is created, like, usually more companies adopted and all of a sudden, there's that specialization that's needed across the industry. And so I think that's what people I think we as a people, and it's not just engineers, there's this, like, there's always been this, this mantra, this idea that, like, we need to be well rounded. And we need to become experts in all areas. But I think, I don't know if anybody's read the book, Strength Finders. But the premise of the book is that you're actually better off, not working on any of your weaknesses, and just becoming an expert in the areas that you're great at. And what happens is you end up building, building a team around you, of people whose strengths complement your weaknesses. And so now you have this additive team that is so dynamic, and everybody has their own swim lane. And so I think, you know, you carry that over to the engineering space, right? You could be great on the architecture side, another person is great on the SQL database side, right? Another person is great, right? When it comes to cross functional work, or comms or presentation, and now, like you're able to actually, like, lean in to everybody and utilize everybody and there aren't any redundancies, where it's like, well, Jem's already a great architect, like, do we need to hire Ryan right now? Like, you guys are arguing over the work or whatever, you know what I'm saying? It's just like, why not have your own specialization? And be that like, true power player on the team?

Ryan Burgess
That's so good.

Taylor Desseyn
That's a great answer. I've seen stop talking because everything thought Jonathan is a straight fuck fire. So for me,

Jono Grayson
I you you've dropped some bombs.

Taylor Desseyn
You're so eloquent man. You got great voice to the mics. Great. I don't know. I think standing now, I think so. I want to go back to networking because I don't want us to, to, to to miss on that on this topic. And I think this is kind of my thing to stand out is I was I was very, I've become very fascinated with behaviors of people in like, in like, I've really kind of taken on a content marketing kind of mindset. And I've really focused it on the engineering side and and how people find jobs and how people interact in today's world, right? We are we are remote, right? We're doing this podcast remote. We are doing our meetings on zoom on Microsoft Teams like, what that is virtual RAM as the metaverse right. We're not there yet, actually, though, that we pretty tight to do this thing in the metaverse. But that being said, networking is it I literally interviewed a guy today he's injury manager and ft company called Exodus. And literally he was like, if I get 20 resumes, but three people have pinged me on LinkedIn. But hey, listen, I've researched Exodus, I just submitted my resume your friend enroll, I'm pretty hyped up about this stuff. Like, just I just want to put it you know, just connect. He goes, I'm gonna go right to HR and be like, Hey, do you see so and so's name? I want to talk to him. Right? That right now is going to put shoot you to the top of the list, right? Listen, does every person need a podcast? No. There's every person need a blog? No does that I personally the email newsletter, no, but I will tell you this. Find your passion. And if it's engineering great, you know Jason lengstorf, VP of developer experience. Netlify. He and I connected he was on the show on my show. He and I really connected after the show. When I found out he loved corgis. Right. Um, I have a corgi best dog ever don't ask me is basically like a living teddy bear. And and so for me, he and I bonded over that. So now literally, I saw a corgi thing. And I texted Jason randomly, like a month or two ago. And he's like, dude, thanks for sending this is awesome. That's this. That's how you stand out in today's world. But what it is, is you have to spend time on LinkedIn. If you're not on Twitter, and you're the engineering space, I would highly get on Jonno, I don't you are missing out like crazy. And so that that's the skill that I think you need. From a job seeker side of things. Hopefully that answered the question. Was it the job seeker that we're talking about?

Ryan Burgess
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think you and you hit on for me as being a hiring manager. There's been times I get a lot of messages. But some of those messages pop up. And I'm like, Yeah, let's talk and didn't even realize that they've applied to the role because sometimes that may not have hit my quote unquote desk yet because like there's stacks of people applying and it may not have made its way to me but someone reaching out and being like, Hey, I was really saw this role on your team. And, you know, I'm interested in here's why. That's super helpful. I mean, let me call out a little bit of a negative too, because there is sometimes when you're the message where it's like, I want to work at Netflix, how do I do that? That to me, unfortunately doesn't land so well. Even know the what Taylor does. scribed of like someone saying, like reaching out and being like, I'm really interested in that role and everything. To me, that actually sounds a lot more thoughtful that basically the same message, right? Like, they're like, I want to work at this company and I want to work on that role, but it's really speaking to what about the role or about that team or about the company that excites you? That actually goes a really long way, not just like, hey, I want to work at Netflix. How do I do that? It That, to me, it's just hard. I'm like, Well, that wasn't the most thoughtful message versus someone who's just put a little more thought into that. So I do want to call that out as maybe added to that you got to get better.

Jem Young
I want to work at Netflix someday. How can I do that? I'm like, that's such a broad. Alright, like, so many categories. So I have

Taylor Desseyn
a hack. Alright, so listen, for those of you who are single on Tinder or Bumble or whatever, dadgum swipe app that's out there. Now I met my wife on Tinder, by the way, but shout out Tinder looking for sponsorships. But basically, there's three ways to slot into someone's DM. Right so here's here's a good damn one. Flattery admiration. Hey, Jem, I follow you on Twitter. Love what you're doing. I think you're a great mind and engineers base. Well, first off, Jen's gonna be Jack. He's like, Alright, one this guy like or girl like pays attention to me too. I like to feel good, right? So there got him right there to list a specific amount of time that you want to talk to somebody if you want talk somebody, right. So hey, Jem, I was wondering, you got three minutes, man. I've always wanted to work at Netflix. And I want to ask you what is the key thing that a job seeker could stand out with interviewed at Netflix. So what that does is Jem knows it's going to be quick. And I got one question. Right? Listen, when my mom texts me, she goes, You got five minutes. How long is that gonna be? How long is that gonna be an hour? hour and a half? Probably right. I ain't got time for that. No manager. No one's got time for five minutes. Everyone's got time for six minutes. So all you're gonna get

Jem Young
there was there was one? No, you're like I got 3332 admiration flattery.

Taylor Desseyn
Yeah, three tips love, admiration, flattery, a specific amount of time and this specific question.

Jem Young
Yes, that that's absolutely right, though. Those are responses. You're 100% right. Those generic queries the ones you copy paste I think

Taylor Desseyn
that's how slitting your damn your your dams. Your gems. Your DMS,

Jem Young
probably. I thought Ryan introduces

Taylor Desseyn
Ryan introduces us into Ryan's DMS, then.

Jem Young
No, that is 100% accurate. Even if even I like the ones where it's like, Hey, I'm not there yet. But I want to get there in a few years versus hey, I want to work at Netflix. I'm like, Man, you got two years experience. You could be awesome. Chances are you're not chances are you have like a lot of growing to do. But if you're like, Hey, I'm here. These are the like I'm brand new to the field, I got a couple years experience, I really want to get to the level I can work at Netflix or any other company in tech, can you give me a little bit of pointers on how you got there? Those I always respond to because like it takes very little effort for me to tell like my sad life story. But I know those sorts of things work. I would say the caveat to the advice, some of the advice given here is be authentic in your communication. So good. I like we I know John Taylor, number one because you all talk to people all day for a living. But all hiring managers all recruiters have a BS meter. And we can tell very quickly, when you're just full of whatever like just like not authentic communication. It's really like transactional, like, I want something from you versus I'm trying to make a genuine connection. And yeah, I know it's hard to like prescribe genuineness and authenticity, but you got to try people try to try a little bit, man, there were people on the other end, too.

Jono Grayson
It'll get exposed at some point. Yeah,

Jem Young
that's what I'm like, I don't know about this person. Once you go talk to him. He'll be like I got to you will find out about

Taylor Desseyn
it is a real thing is a real thing.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, I got one for y'all. I feel like I know the answer. But things have changed. Companies have even changed their tune on being remote and allowing and actually hiring remote. I've seen that drastically change in the industry? Is that an important thing nowadays, like, you know, the market is that it feels like it's such an in demand thing. So I feel like I'm just kind of answering my own question. But how important is it that companies are offering remote,

Jono Grayson
I think it's vital for companies to stay relevant. Actually, I was looking at an article one of my co workers sent me an article that talked about just the struggle to retain employees. And it talked about this shift in remote opportunities. And I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher this stat, the other stat that I had was was accurate. But I know this is like somewhat close it was a year ago or in 2020 before COVID I think it was one in like 600 or one 300 jobs mentioned or we're open to the possibility of remote work now in 2021 or last year in 2021. It was one in six jobs offered remote options and I'm gonna I'm going to fact check myself Taylor I'm gonna let you go but I'm going to fact check myself to figure out what what the actual status but to see that like transformation for the entire right entire industry is incredible. So if you are not Not allowing your your employees to work remote. Right? You're, you're at a significant disadvantage. Yeah.

Taylor Desseyn
I mean, John, John is a reader. And I love that because I'm more of like a picture type of guy, like more like picture books and type type situations. So it's always nice to have people around you who actually read things. But for me, for me, I think remotes vital. I quoted this the other day. And I'm gonna quote it here, because you'll have a bigger following than I do. But I think we're going to start to see the emergence of a four day workweek. Because what's happening now is companies who can't who offer remote but can't pay market so remote one pays to write and then I get this whole lazy narrative, we can't pay Fang. Okay, that's, that's lazy stop that. You got to there, there is a national average that that's kind of the area I work in, right, like Fang, big tech, that's kind of its own entity, right? You kind of play in a different space I'm not familiar with. That's why John, like, I think you and I just need to like, hang out and drink some gym together. Maybe I'll fly out to wherever you are. But on Vagos Dom, but basically like, like, there is a middle level where companies are caning me get to that. So my thing is, is like I think we're going to start seeing four day workweeks from companies who can't even pay kind of that national mid average is what I call it. So they have to try to entice people in other ways. But yeah, for me, remote number one, pay number two, if you can't do pay, I think we're gonna start seeing companies get a little creative.

Jono Grayson
So I fact checked myself and looked up the article, and it was one in 67. So I was I was a little bit off 167 jobs mentioned, right, or we're open to the possibility of remote work. In the net move to one,

Taylor Desseyn
Nashville is the one and 60 is 65 other jobs like literally like Nashville, so behind, I think it's the South, I think southeast in general. Like, we're so antiquated. Dude, we got companies ask them for three days in the office still, still, and they're below pay. So what the heck y'all doing? I hope to hope to hear this podcast, they feel guilty, because they need to feel guilty. But yeah, it's just it's nuts, man, like people still aren't getting it. Still not getting it. I think that

Ryan Burgess
it's, it's tough to because now those companies are really competing. So local talent is like, Yeah, but I can go get a remote job and get paid the salary that I'm worth and and so I do agree with you is that companies really need to think and understand that it's not that they have to go move to Silicon Valley to go get paid the fang company, it's like, no, no, the fang company will hire you in Nashville, Tennessee, like that is happening. And so I think that is more and more important to stay competitive to think strategically about that.

Taylor Desseyn
So I have one thing I want to go back to the networking because I can't stress it enough. One of my buddies works in Netflix Now in Nashville, and it's because he randomly DM the hiring manager and was like, Hey, I've been following you. You guys are doing this. And he got a job after after it. One DM one DM. And so, again, just what Ryan just said, reiterating, you don't have to go anywhere now. Right. And that's what companies need to be aware of. It's not a localized cess salary anymore. It's a it's a national rate. There's the you're nationally behind and that is going to be a problem for organization in the next five years.

Jem Young
I'll say, Well, I had a question before they work weeks. That's a very hot take. And I want to I want to hear more about that. The other one is, yes. Remote is not a thing like companies I still see people giving like some of the largest tech companies crap because like oh, you need to be on site. Some stuff like that. The Fang companies are like the tastemakers for the tech industry. Whether you like it or not Facebook, still by campuses, Google still by campuses, it's unlikely they're gonna go full remote anytime soon, Microsoft is still growing and expanding Lincoln slugger and expanding, etc. So like, I think there are different categories of tech companies where some are like, you have to be remote to be competitive because like you, you don't get offered a salary. You don't offer prestige and offer the work or something like that. And then there's the large tech companies where they're like, we're gonna do whatever we want to do. You don't want to work remote. Don't work. Yeah, this is like literally everybody went, okay. So I think it's important before, like, understand what what you really want as an engineer before you start, like, how dare they not offer remote? I'm a great engineer. It's like, well, that's, that's not their company. That's, that's okay. Like, I think there's something for everybody. On the four day workweek, as as Silicon Valley, tech wise people, do you really think that is going to stick around now? Because I don't I want to say something. But like, I want to hear what you all think about the four day workweek. John, I'm interested in your thoughts.

Jono Grayson
I mean, I don't know if I really have an opinion on this, like it yet. Sounds tight. I would love to have a four day workweek. Is it realistic? Now? You're still going to get customers, clients, right? Like other people that are even outside of your org that are going to be sent a request on the Monday or Friday that you aren't working and you're going to get guilted into doing the work So it just it sounds it sounds good. I just don't think it'll happen. I'm in support of it though. Yeah, I know it Netflix things about Yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
we got my bed John was like one one. Um, but now for me Listen, I don't think I think it depends on your business, right? It's like we just said like, you can never turn this recruiter I mean, John, that like I literally messaged my wife was like, Hey, I have I have something till 530 today like I like I'm trying to wrap up new year new me I'm trying to get a little better work life balance, but like, like, recruiting it's very difficult. If you're, if you're if you're with a company, I think it can be done depending on your company, for the most part, because everything SAS everything, you know, product base customers 24/7, always whatever. Like, I don't think it's scalable. But I do think it could work depending on what you do as a company.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, the way I think about it is, yeah, it's probably unrealistic that the whole industry is now four day work week to have a lot of the great points that you all mentioned, I think what I think about it is more we open ourselves open for like, open up for flexibility in the sense that people should be able to work less or change their hours and, and it shouldn't really be tracked, like you can I can work in the evening and respond to a couple emails, or I'm like, No, I'm not that productive. Right now, I'm going to take the rest of the afternoon off. But that doesn't mean that I'm not delivering things like I think we should get rid of the whole acid seat model like that, that's never really been a thing like nine to five, it doesn't really work. And so I think that if anything, I could see more and more flexibility. I feel like I have flexibility in my schedule. I have for that to my team, I don't pay attention to hours worked or vacation time. It's like you're getting your job done. And that's really what works and you know how to be most productive. I don't know, everyone's different, do what works best for you. And so I think that that kind of is maybe the mental model, the four day workweek is people need breaks. But we just need to allow for that more is that people should just take breaks when they need them. I will say it is very nice. Sometimes when you can coordinate a day off like on a Friday, when your entire org does it. Because then nobody's nobody is sending you messages, right? That's it's cut down. And then it's really easier for you to say fully disconnect. So there are some benefits to like doing that. But I agree with all of you. I don't know that it's likely going to happen in our podcasts. We always like to go and take share pics of things that we found interesting. We've shared a lot of amazing advice already. I want each of you to maybe one piece of advice for that engineer out there looking for a job, what's the one piece of advice that you would leave them with before we jump into our picks?

Taylor Desseyn
A one piece of advice that I would have for engineers right now. We kind of covered a lot. I mean, I'm really big on networking. I'm really big on the BM game really big. I mean, I think at the end of the day, I know you said one but I'm going to my mental checklist and out loud. So you can cut out all this if you need to resume LinkedIn, incredibly important. It's still a cornerstone of the job search, man I, I think be intentional, bring energy, be curious and enjoy the journey. I think I think people approach I think there's a job search mentality. Actually, I've wrote a blog about this. There's a job search mentality that needs to occur in, you know, we talked about, you know, I'm a big college football guy, right? I went to University of South Carolina, we went through a coaching change. We just went North Carolina this year, like, but and like our coach. Like our kind of mantra is the climb right? South Carolina went to an eight for an eight, like we've sucked, right. And it's not the process. And it's not the journey, but it's the climb. And our coach has gotten all the players to believe in, hey, listen, it's not going to happen overnight. It's the same thing with a job search. I think people go into the job search and like oh shit, like, here I go again, I got to interview and like, talk to a bunch of strangers. But it's like, you know what, if you flip your mindset, right, I'm going to get to the gym today. Or I'm going to get to meet Gianna today, I may have the chance to learn something about AWS that I've never learned before. I'm going to be able to find a new home eventually, that that may give me better gear than I'm at now. Right there. It's a mindset shift. And I feel like there's so much negativity. I think people put out a bunch of toxic negativity in the job search I you know, we've all seen it on Twitter except jocks, he's not on him. He won't get on it after this, about people tweeting, like after they interview and they just trash it's always everybody else's fault. Right and I just think that the positivity needs to be there and you have to flip your mentality from Oh, no to this is gonna be fun.

Jono Grayson
Yeah, plus one to everything Taylor said. I think for me, my advice would be to utilize your, your network, right in in really like lean into your near inventory, to help get that job or get that interview I think like, we so often just blindly just like apply to jobs or you know, folks would just click, click, click apply, apply, submit my resume, or resume. But with that it's a bit of a gap guessing game. And you don't know what the team is like you don't know what the culture is, like you don't know, like truly what you're walking into. And so if you can reach out to a gym, a Ryan, a tailor and say, Hey, Ryan, can you submit my resume or refer me over to this role? I think there's a couple things that happen there, you have somebody on the inside, they can tell you, you know, truly what it's like to work there. And if they think it would be a good fit, and they might be more honest about your ability to work there as well. And so you just like your expectations are set in, they're realistic. I think the other other thing is you give yourself a better chance to actually get in front of the hiring manager and have your resume seen when I go to gym, and I'm like, Hey, there's this engineer that I worked with that lift, when you look at the resume, like he sees it, you know, it's there's no guarantee that he gets an interview, or that she gets an interview, they get an interview, but they'll at least Jem at least look at whoever this is, and will most likely, you know, John, I trust you. I feel like you have good judgment, or at least give this person a shot. So I would say that's, that's the best advice is just utilize your inventory, utilize your network as much as possible. But tailor that's what you've been saying is Network, Network network network. Alright, Jem,

Ryan Burgess
hiring manager advice.

Jem Young
I'd say someone who just recently as someone who recently hired remember, we talked to a lot of people find a way to stand out in some way and in an authentic way. But like we have a finite amount of time. This one comes down to like when you actually get the connection to the hiring manager is Be concise with your answers. If you ramble on, it makes me think I don't know what you're talking about. And like understand that, like I I'm trying to get a signal on you as quickly as I can. So like be tighten your answers, be focused and understand what you're looking for. Because maybe you're not the right fit. Ryan Ryan is like, master of this and Netflix, but he talks to people and like, Hey, you're not a good fit for me. However, my buddy over here on TV, I think you'd be a good fit there. But like you have to understand what you as an engineer are looking for. So being tighten that focus. Kelly, I like what you said about being optimistic about it, especially people that are new. They're always like, Jem, I want to I want to get the six figure salary. I'm like, Cool. Tell me about yourself. Like, I'm about to start a boot camp. I'm like, You got a long way to go my friend. But like, understand, like, it's a 510 year journey, you can't get there immediately. You may see people on Twitter be like, I just got this big thing offer. Yeah, half of its luck, half this just like knowing the right people. And the other half is just getting out there and trying a lot. So for all those people again, started off just starting off their code journey and switch it over from being teachers and nurses all that it's a journey, it's gonna take you a few years, but that's okay. I think the payoff is

Taylor Desseyn
worth no note to self be really clear and concise with Jen moving forward. Got it.

Ryan Burgess
Communication is important. It really is. I'll maybe build on gems a little bit, too, that maybe you're in that interview stage, or you are having conversations with the recruiting team, or the hiring manager or the engineers that are within the team. Be curious. I think it really speaks to what Jem was even saying is like, you're also interviewing, do I want to be in this team? Do I want to work with these folks? Do I you know, is this the right role for me? But I think it also you have to, like want the role? And so like, what's what's important to you and ask questions like, what's the growth of the team? What are some of the things that are they're dealing with troubles that they're dealing with challenges? What's exciting to them? I think sometimes we forget that. Yeah, we're getting interviewed on the right, like, we're getting all the questions if I'm the one who's the engineer interviewing, but like, you want to ask some questions, too, and thoughtful questions that goes a long way. It shows that you're curious and care about their role.

Jono Grayson
I want to I want to add two follow up points to each of your tips gem and Ryan, I think first gem in terms of being concise, I think, some of the best advice that I got from it was a it was like a VP at Apple. And this was on a candidate that I brought in candidate, you know, scored like pretty well. And I think all of the decisions were higher, right? Or they're threes, fours, but ultimately, we decided not to move forward. And as VP he was like, You know what, like, there was a lot of bright spots there. There was, you know, a lot of good but they were so long winded and verb verbose in their answers. He goes, if I asked you what time it is, don't tell me how the clock is made. Which is I love that analogy of blood like and it's stuck. It's stuck with me since then. So that's why I'm being concise. And then Ryan, in terms of being curious. I think that's such great advice. And so I have a podcast as well. And it's all on failure.

Taylor Desseyn
Wait, what is it? What was it called? So I'm literally gonna subscribe right now.

Jono Grayson
It's called mostly mistakes. And the goal of this alone is the goal of it is to normalize failure and help people like get it like a true understanding of what it takes to be successful. Like you're gonna you're gonna fuck up a lot. But one of our guests he, he great. He gave a great quote and it was his like general interviewing advice, and it was tried to sound interested in not interesting, in a sense that right people that try to sound interesting, they try to be no at all. And they're trying to drop facts and trying to do this and really, like, boast and beat their chests and really are being inauthentic in lying about what they can actually do where instead, if you are curious, and you're interested in who you're meeting with and what you're doing, it shows your analytical skills, it shows you that you are always looking to understand to seek to know, and we all want that person on our team. Wow, you guys

Ryan Burgess
are leaving so much gold for people of information. It's great. This is awesome. All right. Well, in each episode of the front end, happier podcast, we'd like to leave you all with things that we found interesting and want to share with you. It can be relevant to the podcast episode. It can be completely off base, but we're going to share it anyways. Jem, I'll let you started off. So prepare guests to what you're sharing.

Jem Young
Yeah, so I have two picks today. One is an article from probably one of my favorite online publications, new sites, I don't know what you call it. It's called Ars Technica. I, it's one of the few sites actually pay for it a subscriber. And I know they have really good takes on pop culture technology, they can actually like dig into stuff. So it's not just like, Hey, Apple released a new iPhone. They'll dig into like the tech specs, but not something like Tom's Hardware and Antec or something like that, where you're like, what do they even talk about CBD, even me, but they it's like the right balance of informative for a tech person like myself, but still being approachable for people who aren't necessarily tech. So our sector isn't actually my pick, I should have been, but they're awesome. They have an article. It was written last year, a few months ago, but I just came across it. It's called a decade and a half of instability, the history of Google messaging apps. And I was like, Oh, my God, it's so I don't understand a Google maintains the company. I know, they make like all their money from search. But it's like so frustrating to see the culture of Google replicated in their messaging apps. And like, you can look at their history of, I don't know, the dozen or so ways they tried to like reinvent the wheel. And that tells you a lot about like how their promotion culture is what their internal culture is, what their engineering culture, and you can get all that from the way they release products and how it's done. With like products that don't work with each other, even though they really said the exact same time they do the exact same thing. Anyways, it's a really good article, I highly recommend it. We will do some, we're going to do an episode, I think later this year upon promotion driven development, and how that shows up in people's products. That is something that's very, very real in Silicon Valley. And once you see it, you can't unsee it, but you understand why things are the way they are. So good article, I highly recommend it. Ars Technica

Taylor Desseyn
RS, RS, what?

Jem Young
It's Ars Technica, t c h. And

Taylor Desseyn
if it is good enough, if Jem likes clear, concise answers, and he likes this, then I will like it. So I'm gonna subscribe.

Jem Young
It's like one of the most reasonable and balanced sites like they're, they're not left. They're not right. It's just like, it is what it is. And we're tactical people. And like, this is how things are affecting and they call people out on all sides. So I genuinely enjoy it. One of the few places I actually spend my money on the internet. My second pick is my valley silicon pick for those who are just not listening or not friend, unhappier regulars. That's the part of the show where I picked things that they only exist, these products only exist because people in Silicon Valley make way way too much money. So the question is Ryan altos to use it's actually now Jada, since you brought up gin and tonic, how do you make a gin and tonic? Like what walk me through real quick?

Jono Grayson
I feel like this is a trick question. Like, I feel like it's not to be like a fuck there was actually there was, No, you're an idiot. It's not it's not attractive. So I'm gonna start like, my wife is. So she's an interior designer, and she's all about this setting. And she she, in college, and even post college she like bartended a little bit on the side. So I think I'm a little spoiled by her. But you got to have the right glass, right? You gotta have a nice, nice mug, right? Solid thickness of glass. A nice solid ice cube. We have one of those like, large ice cube makers, right? Get your ice cube, get your tonic, I think you're going about maybe about a quarter up the glass of ton of gin, tonic the rest. A nice little, I'd say nice little line to add to it. No, cucumber, not a cucumber guy.

Jem Young
Man I want to talk to that is you put a lot of thought into that. Oh,

Jono Grayson
the question. Honestly, the question made me nervous. And I think I overthought the question too. I was super nervous. I was I was ready for Jem to like pop up out of my like my closet or something like Now you fucked up.

Jem Young
No, I don't ambush people on the show. I hope that no, that's not my style. Talk Radio. So after all that all that care and thought that you put into making a gin and tonic also one of my favorite drinks. What if I can tell you you've been doing it wrong this whole time? Let me tell you about the bar teason cocktail maker For the low price of $350, it will put together the cocktails for you. Because as you know, making a cocktail is a very, very, very complicated process that wow many years of study, you got to get a smoke machine and a degree in biology for $350. The Cartesian will sell you pre made mixtures that will automatically scan and understand how their price precise amount of bitters. This is something I came across. I don't understand why it exists. This is why it's Valley silicon. It's just not that difficult to make cocktail. Yes. Whoa, wait, no.

Taylor Desseyn
This is an actual thing. Oh, yeah, Guy y'all wild out there.

Jem Young
I don't understand who this is for because it's like, it's like it just pours like the right like two to one gin and tonic or something for you. It like uses like these proprietary pods that no doubt you're going to have to buy again. And then once they go out of business, they won't be used any use anymore. It's just like solving a problem that isn't really a problem, which is why this is valid silica and that's why social fake is the Cartesian cocktail maker. I I'm just here to tell you you all been doing it wrong. You can just get a machine to do it for you,

Ryan Burgess
John, you got to follow that one now with your your pics.

Jono Grayson
Alright. And this is this is my first time here. So I just want to make sure these are just any pics that we have things that we love products, services, whatever, with the show or book, whatever. Yeah. Okay, so my pick my first pick. This is this is actually one of my favorite purchases of all time. And, Jem, I think you know that I'm in Arizona, Taylor Ryan. That's where I'm in. I'm in Arizona, living in Phoenix, but I'm from the Bay. So what I what I'm going to what I'm selling here is going to seem like a little bit of an oxymoron for me living in the desert, but it is kind of cold here. And I just went up to Flagstaff last week and was in snow. But my pick is right here. It is a heated vest. So do you see this? Wait for it. Do you see the Iron Man button? You see? Right there. So it's a heated vest. You got a little battery pack sweating,

Taylor Desseyn
just looking at that.

Jono Grayson
This is weird. My wife and I were living in San Francisco was perfect. And now we only use them we you know we only use them when we go up north to Flagstaff. But there's an interchangeable battery pack. You know, whatever you plug it up, set it up. There's coils on the chest. There's coils on the back this coils on the neck. First I bought one for my dad, he loved it. I bought one bought one for my wife, my mom, my dad, my stepmom like I'm out here hanging out. He did best like I'm Oprah. And you get this and you get this and you get it this is that's that's pick number one here. Let me send it in the group. Let me send it let me send it. The brand is it's a mouthful. The brand is Aurora. No, no, no. It's like the Scooby Doo retro. So it's O R O R O Aurora. Second pick for me. It's actually I don't know if anybody has had this but it is Gatorade organic. Ooh, this is the the best version best flavor of Gatorade, Gatorade, organic, and I go with the strawberry flavor. I love it so much that I have it on Amazon subscription. So I get a couple I get a couple cases every couple months. In wifey shoes. She stalks the frigerator. So two picks from me,

Ryan Burgess
Taylor, what do you have for us?

Taylor Desseyn
Alright, so for me, so I think I have to give a shout out to a podcast and I hope they listen to y'all. I doubt it. But it's kind of like, kind of like culture. They're out of LA. It's called group chat. So I I've so I basically I'm a nerd and I listen to like recruiting for South Carolina football. So like that pretty much like is a lion's share of my listening time. But I've discovered these guys, I don't know how I found them. But group chat. They're three dudes, two of them are brothers and they talk everything from like, you know, pop culture to tech. They're, you know, all of them are entrepreneurs investors. So they talk a lot of financial stuff and NF T's and crypto. I mean, it's very broad. It's really awesome. The way they do it. Their banter is really good. Honestly, I think our banter is better, but there's a really good and so I would check that out group chat, I would say from probably like, I'm gonna do like a like a product. So for me, I am so I'm just gonna do this right so this right here, so I do a lot of content and and it's gonna be difficult if you can't watch it. So it's on Amazon. It's basically a tiny tripod. A lot of tripods for content suck this thing is like steel or like it is you can beat somebody up with this thing. I was getting tattooed in New York City back in September Ryan our chatting about that. And my tattoo artists use all the time to do content for tattoos and it's

Jem Young
like nothing, but I don't know, it's just like shows what humans are capable of. And I never would have thought it's possible. I really, I can't plus one that's enough like go watch it. It is worth is a worthwhile watch. Good thick, right? Um,

Taylor Desseyn
I'm a third of the way through it. So I need to or a fourth of the way through it. So I need to I need to finish it, but the start of it was was amazing. I don't know if we're doing shownotes, but I can send it in the link and y'all can share it, but it's 14 bucks. And literally like, I stream all of my content through it on my phone. And yeah, I highly recommend it. So it's a little little teeny tiny tripod today.

Ryan Burgess
All right, I have one pic to share with you all, maybe an inspiration story documentary on Netflix, because no one's mentioned Netflix yet but a documentary called 14 peaks boat a God thing I was in Nepal. Yeah, like guy in Nepal. Go seeks to climb all the tallest 14 Mountains across the world. It's just, it's so well done. And just beautiful. Like just seen these tops these mountains. It's an inspirational story. Really cool to see someone from Nepal doing that. Like, obviously, they have some amazing mountains in Nepal. But just really great all around. I think it's, you know, just a really awesome show to watch. So maybe it'll give you some inspiration to move into the next job or role. I don't know. It'd be great. So that's my pick for this episode.

Jem Young
Where it can I just like plus one that that IT people if you're listening, watch this documentary. It is one of most incredible things I've ever seen. He is one of most incredible human beings I've ever seen. Like, there's entire movies and series about people climbing Everest, and he just goes up and goes down it like nothing. But I don't know. It's just like shows what humans are capable of. And I never would have thought it's possible. I really, I can't plus one. That's enough. Like go watch it. It is worth is a worthwhile watch. Good. Big right?

Ryan Burgess
Well, I just want to say thank you so much to our amazing guests. Taylor, John. Oh, thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure having you. Where can people find you on the internet? Where can they get in touch with you?

Taylor Desseyn
So I am. My day job is to put out a crap ton of content. So literally, you can probably find me the only platform I'm not on a Snapchat or only fans, so not on those two. I use Twitter religiously. I'm on LinkedIn a ton. I am on Instagram, Youtube. Tik Tok. I don't dance but I am on Tik Tok. So, again, basically T dessin TDSS Ey and on any platform and then my morning shows guidance counselor to point out as the lovely thing about Taylor Zoe. It's all about hiring very sorely disappointed is really going.

Jono Grayson
I think

Jem Young
we've lost them. We've lost them, folks. All right.

Jono Grayson
So I'm on on LinkedIn. Right, Jay? Oh, no. Gianna, first name. Last Name. Grace. And GRE. I'm connecting with you right now. By the way, dude. Awesome. I'm on Instagram as well. I think same first name, last name. Also my podcast. Most mistakes. Apple Music. Just follow the apple podcast. Taylor. Appreciate you and what else? Yeah, I'm not on Twitter. I think I need to get on there. So LinkedIn Instagram, podcast. Thanks for having me. Jem Ryan. Seriously. Thank you.

Ryan Burgess
Thank you for joining us. Yeah, thank you. Thank you all for listening. Today's episode. You can find us on whatever you like to listen to podcasts on in finance at front end. Happy hour.com We're on Twitter at front end. H H. Jem. Do you have any last words for our listeners?

Jem Young
Join us next week where my valley silicon pick will be Janos $170 Fest.