Episode transcript

Edit transcript

Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a new episode of the front end, happier podcast. A lot has changed in the tech landscape recently. I mean, we have layoffs, we have new companies popping up all different things, AI is all over the place. But yeah, we want to really focus this episode on jobs and recruiting. So we're joined by Chris and Hillary to talk with us about the current landscape and how levels and titles are showing up for recruiters. Hilary and Chris, can you give a brief introduction of who you are, what you do, and what your favorite Happy Hour beverages

Hillary Mager
I'm Hillary, I'm founder and CEO at Sterling strand, we are retained executive search firm. My claim to fame before starting this firm was that I was recruited number one at Flatiron health, which is a New York based health tech company during their whole growth period. And then also spent some time before and after that actually at hedge funds, Bridgewater and Citadel and my favorite Happy Hour beverage is it's a beer actually called delirium tremens. It's very delicious, very high alcohol content.

Chris Running
Wow. And I press running. I've spent my entire career in engineering recruiting. So I spent seven years working at Netflix where I at the end, I ran all of the engineering recruiting. And then most recently, just shy of a year ago, I joined Hilary and Sterling strand where I support the product and engineering rd

Ryan Burgess
will also give introductions of today's panelists. Stacy, you want to start it off? Sure.

Stacy London
I'm Stacy London. I'm a principal front

Jem Young
end engineer at Atlassian, Jem Young engineering manager at Netflix.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm an engineering manager at Netflix. In each episode, the front end Happy Hour podcast, we'd like to choose a keyword that if it's mentioned in an all in the episode, we will all take a drink. And what did we decide today's keyword is compensation, compensation compensation. All right, I'm pretty sure when we talk recruiting and hiring all that compensation always comes up. It's kind of an important factors. So in this episode, I know we're talking about recruiting jobs, etc. But we really were coming at it from the theme of levels and titles. Why is it so important to get leveling? Correct, especially during the hiring phase,

Hillary Mager
so I can get started. I think this is something we talk with our clients a lot about. And I think sometimes people underestimate how important it is, you know, I once had someone tell me, like, titles are free, it's the best thing to negotiate with. And I think I think we don't agree with that. And the reason is, because while it might feel free right now, it will not be free later, there will be costs associated with getting it wrong. And the reason for that is because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube on titles. So once you give a title out, that person has that title, you can't you know, you can't really demote people, we'll talk a little bit about, you know, what happens when, you know, mistakes are made, but like, it's not something companies generally do. And so when you give a title, you have to be very, very, very confident that that is the minimum level that that person can be successful in. Because if they're not, it's just it's very, very hard to fix. So I think that's the primary reason it's important to get right. And there are a couple other reasons as well. Chris, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I

Chris Running
think just to build on that, I think, you know, getting the title wrong can be a spiral effect, once you, you know, kind of sets the precedent, once you title someone of what the title is, you're going to need for the rest of the folks that you're hired within that organization or within that company.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I mean, also, you're both talking about that person coming in and getting, you know, getting it right for them. But it's also could be really frustrating for engineers or Well, anyone in the company that it's like, if you bring someone in at a higher title, you're like, how did they get that title? Right? Like, we don't have that title, nobody else does, or that doesn't seem right. And that can actually cause some like culture issues within a team or a company as well. And

Chris Running
something that we come across all the time, and I'm sure will resonate with you as engineering managers is that, you know, people follow people as well. So if you bring in let's say, you bring in someone that's relatively junior for the title they're given that could be a VP of engineering as an example. And then they go to hire directors under them or their deputies under that it can be really, really hard to attract the level of talent needed as the company scales. And that's something that Hillary and I come up against all the time, we were working with leaders who are asking us to kind of build out their team under them.

Ryan Burgess
That's a really good point, too. Because yeah, you do evaluate a company on like, who you're reporting to, and yeah, if I'm having to report to someone who's a lot more junior than me, that's going to frustrate me, I probably wouldn't take the role.

Hillary Mager
And I think it works. It works. You You know, in other ways to where, you know, well, we come across a lot of startups, and they tell us they want to hire a C level executive, and the company is only 30 people. And there's no team in place, or their team is very, very small. And so I think it's important to think about, like, how does this level that you're giving this role map to the actual problems that you need to solve is the role of sea level role where it's about, you know, vision and managing managers and, you know, a little bit less hands on day to day? Or is this a role that is very hands on, and you need to set expectations that this person is going to be coding, or, you know, building the go to market motion, or whatever hands on activity it is, and so titling it more senior number one sets the wrong expectations with candidates. And I think number two, you know, where does that candidate take you, you know, you've let's say you give them that title, let's say they do the job, great. But now, 18 months from now, the team is 15. And they're a mid level person who can't stretch to the next phase of growth. Now, what do you do with this person who has the sea level title, who is expecting to be on the executive team? How do you place them into the right point in the org, with a title like that? So, you know, we often recommend, actually, I'm to tell you, almost every week, we talk to clients, they come to us, and we're titling things down, we're like, this isn't a CTO, this is a VP of engineering, or this is a tech lead. Same with marketing, you know, you're not looking for, you know, a VP of Marketing, actually, this is a marketing manager. And so let's level the person correctly. Now to attract the right kind of candidate with the right expectations. And to set you up for success down the line, when you do need to bring in that person at that next level.

Ryan Burgess
I like the idea of leveling down to because that's easier, like, like you said earlier is it's really hard to, quote unquote, demote someone or remove a title. But like, if you bring someone in at that, like, you know, talking about the C suite, it's like they could easily grow to that C suite when it's needed, but it's not necessarily required today. And so you're helping to grow towards that, versus labeling it as that and saying, Well, that's the expectation, the role, you have to meet those expectations. So I think that's a really good lesson right there.

Hillary Mager
And giving a carrot. Right? Yeah, like, earn it.

Chris Running
I was gonna add, Ryan, probably the number one thing I learned from Hillary since I came to certain strands that seems so basic, but it's so helpful, is she asked clients, what's the problem you're trying to solve? You know, when they come to us and say they need to hire, she likes us. Like, let's take a step back. What's the problem you're trying to solve? And I think that is why internet question then helps you get the get the level really, right, because then you understand that, hey, this level, this problem is getting back to what I need to do at this business. And that kind of goes back to Hillary's point of like, making sure that the responsibilities the expectations are set really clearly in the beginning,

Jem Young
do you think part of the problem is there's not a lot of insight and visibility into what C levels and executives do? Because you know, the further up you go, the fewer roles there are, I'd say, most engineers don't have a solid grasp of what a CTO actually does. I don't think most people know what a CTO does. I'd say most people don't know the CEO does. So when you're a founder, you know, you're an engineer, you're ambitious. And you're like, oh, we need a CEO, we need a C level of some sort. Do you think they're just saying that because they see the title? And they're like, Oh, it must do something important? Or is it? They just don't have a good grasp of what that role actually entails? And that's part of your job is to kind of course, correct

Hillary Mager
them is the question that, like candidates are excited because of the level, but they don't understand the role. Like, why why did they get excited about the the title or

Jem Young
a bit of both? Like, I mean, I don't, I don't think I have a good grasp of what the CEO does like their day to day, like, that's not a visibility that I'm privy to, generally, I think that's usually the case. So when people say like, oh, I need a C level and your CTO or something like that, is it. They see the title and like, my company needs to have one as part of signaling? Oh, yes, they just don't have a grasp of what they need. And

Hillary Mager
they see it. I think it's a disconnect between problem and translation of that problem, right. So to Chris's point that, you know, something that we always do is start there, because they've taken a leap already, when they come to us and say, Hey, I need a CEO or a CTO, they've said, I have a tech problem. I need a leader to solve it. And I think that, you know, founders, especially startup founders, who maybe don't have a ton of experience, you know, looking at levels and titles and expectations and, you know, working closely with HR about around how that's defined. They don't know a the implications and to your point B what it means, right, they don't realize that like, you know, just because you have a technical leadership problem doesn't mean that it's a CTO level technical leadership problem. Right. And I think a lot of times, they're really appreciative when we come back to them and say, You know what, like, this is actually going to be a lot cheaper than you expected, because you really don't need a CTO after all, you know, based on these problems. Here's how we map this law. on the market, here's how other companies lap, Matt, this sort of problem in the market. And therefore, here's what we recommend you think about in terms of how to title it.

Chris Running
And Jeff just said, just to kind of get some more specifics, what we often see as well is companies will come to us and say, I need a director of engineering. And here's why. Because they hired someone that was at this high up level, doing the job that describe the vision and the strategy, the engineering culture, or the culture of their marketing department. But they didn't actually think about the property yourself. So they hired someone that would like to up in the clouds, if you will, couldn't actually do the day to day job. And so they have to kind of learn from that lesson. And then they come back to us and say, I need a director, because I actually need someone that's doing more XYZ and kind of get in the weeds.

Hillary Mager
I think one other example, you know, to look at, in a reverse example is what roles are under titled, right? And I think, again, there's this translation problem around the, you know, the issues, the problems and opportunities of the company and the title. And so I had a company come to me recently and say, We need a VP of people. And I said, Well, how much you know, funding Do you have? What's your revenue? How many employees do you have? How much are you growing in the next year? This is a question that we asked to understand sort of sides of the stage of the company. And they were like, well, we're 700 employees going to 1000. And I said, Do you have a chief people officer, right? Do you have someone and this is sort of their direct report? And they said, No, this is going to be our most senior people leader. And I asked them well, why is it a VP role? You know, this is a type of company where fillable roles in terms of owning the division and having deputies exists, right, that does exist at this sort of sizing stage, why not? And they said, well, we want someone who's hands on. And so I think also helping people understand that like, interest and willingness to be hands on is not the same thing as a level necessarily, in some cases, right? Like, it's not just about willingness to be hands on, it's about how your capabilities in that role. Right. Like, I know, amazing Chief People Officer, no amazing CTOs who are extremely hands on. But the quality in which they're able to execute against their role is what makes them that level of person. So there's a scope and select anyway, to summarize, this was scope element of the role. But there's also an abilities element of like, is this person going to map to the abilities and the quality and the performance level that you're going to need in a role like this?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I think we've highlighted a lot of why, you know, levels are important and how to try and do it or some of the mistakes that you can make, what happens when you do have those mistakes, like so I think Hillary and Chrissy, you both have mentioned a few that are obvious, right? Like where they've made this mistake, or they've maybe have someone who's too high level, how do they fix that? Or what do you do to fix that as a company?

Hillary Mager
I think it's hard. And I think that a lot of times it ends in terminations, that's like the, you know, the hard truth. That being said, I don't think it has to end in terminations, I think that, you know, the first thing that founders need to ask themselves, or leaders or the hiring manager needs to ask themselves is, you know, how do I know that I made a mistake, right? Is it that the person did I make the wrong hire? And this person is just not right personality, culture, whatever? Or did I miss level them? Right? Are they a really good director or manager and I gave them a VP title. And if it's the latter, right, if it's you just miss level this person. And they do have a place on the team, there's a need for a manager, there's a need for this sort of director level person that they can operate as, I think the first thing is having a frank conversation with them, and saying, hey, here are the expectations in this role. And this is the truth with any role, right? And any person you have, that's not doing what you need, and saying, here's the expectations, here's how you're performing against those expectations, I would probably give the person a chance to step up and meet the feedback and see if they can perform at that level. Right? I think we should, we shouldn't make assumptions without giving feedback. So first, give feedback, see if they can step up, see if they can, you know, take on the role once they really know what it means to you to operate at that level. And then I think if they're still not operating at that level, they just don't have the experience, they don't have the know how I think you can have a conversation with them about, you know, the paths, which one could be a path out of the company, if that's what they choose, right. And the other path could be staying, you know, in a role that you design for them. And so I think that's a totally reasonable thing to do. We've seen people do this, you know, someone who hired a head of engineering and ended up making that person, you know, a manager of engineering. The challenge with that is what do you do with the title and comp? And so I think it's very, very difficult to take a title away. How is that person going to operate in the organization like, you know, day to day, what's the message going to be around? Why this person has had this taken away? Sometimes you can work that out and say, Hey, this time percent, you know, let it be their decision, this person decided they wanted to take on this role. So they're going to help us hire the replacement. That's a good option, you could leave the title and just say, Hey, we're gonna have a VP reporting to a VP but no, internally, like, their level has been downgraded. But I think it's a case by case basis, and like, sort of based on the policies of your organization. And then I think with comp, like, you know, you have to decide, I don't think you can take Calm down, I just don't think that least in my perspective, I don't know, Chris, if you have a different perspective, I don't think you can take comp away, I think you need to decide, can this person, you know, be worth this amount of comp, can I take this on the chin a little bit, and I made a mistake, or voted to exit the person because they're paid beyond their abilities,

Chris Running
the only thing I would add there is that the camera there is really important. If you're feeling the pain as a hiring manager, or as a leader, that person is probably also feeling the pain, whether you know, they're in a job that's a little too hands on for them. And it's not the scope that they expected, or whether the scope is too large, and they're feeling overwhelmed. They're likely feeling that payments well. And so that upfront candor conversation, I think will go a long way. And I think another thing to think through is what are the ramifications to the organization overall, if a person departs, that has ramifications on the culture, likely the attrition of the people that report into that person. And so I think doing an analysis of what the pros and cons are when you face an exit, versus really trying to retain someone. And if you do have that hard conversation to further exploit, the more that you can be transparent, and empathetic, and involve them in the process of that downgrading, be it have them on the interview panel for their backfill, keep them in the loop of where you're at with hiring that person that will go a long way to success of the team them likely has a really positive implications for the organization and the culture of

Ryan Burgess
the company. I like that you both said about the candor. And I think just even setting those expectations to like, you know, I think Hillary you mentioned like, maybe you do give them the chance to play that role. They may not want that role, too. And so I think that speaking to, here's what the expectations are, here's the role, and really being clear and upfront of that, that you're both aligned on that, that this is like clear, okay, cool. I could read that go down, I don't want that that's actually not what I want in a role. And then it's like you can make that decision really quickly. Or is yes, I would like to be up to that task and do that. And given some of the chance, the compensation one cheers. That one's tough. That one is very, very tough. Because like, it is hard to like, take someone's compensation down. Because they've you know, they've built a life on that expectation of like, Hey, this is what I'm making. Maybe I've purchased a home or bills or paid whatever that is, they've like focused on that as being their what they're expected. So that is a tough one.

Hillary Mager
And I think to go back to what I said in the beginning, like this is why usually it ends in terminations, like there's a delicate dance to be to be danced to get to the point where you can retain that person. And it can be done, if there's a strong reason to do so. And the person is a great culture fit and all these different things. But I would say by and large, you're looking at a termination when this happens. And so this again goes back to it's so important to get it right to really think about this to not use titles as compensate as a way of negotiating and compensating someone because you can't undo it. And now you have to refill the role with someone who's a really good fit for your organization and could have been totally successful in a different

Chris Running
role. And going back to I've just been thinking about the questions that Jim asks, I'm like, you know, I don't really know what a CTO or CEO does, I think often the person doing the hiring, meeting, it's their first time hiring a VP of engineering, or a CTO or a leader, and they don't quite know, what if VP of engineers do in the market, like what does that actually look like. And so, when it comes to the importance of getting a right to begin with, one of the things that we really, really recommend and why we are all about running a really methodical, rigorous hiring process is the importance of calibrating when you're initially going after that person that you want to hire, we recommend that managers calibrate and they do it quickly. And they talk with enough candidates to where they know and they're super competent, and what do I need to control. And so sometimes, just to give an example of, you know, when someone comes to us, they say, I got hired CTO, and we say, Hey, is it really a CTO is that really the problems that you're trying to solve? will actually cast a wide net, and we'll contact people at the CTO level and at the VP level, and sometimes even at the director level and say, Why don't you talk with a variety of folks so we can really narrow in on who do you need and why. So then when it gets about the offer, we're really, really confident that that's the right person that's going to solve those problems. I think historically, at least for me, I thought about recruiting in terms of like, kind of fill in going after the referral quickly, and like making that best fast hire. And now I think, as I've spent more time in recruiting, I actually think about it in terms of like, have we done all the due diligence, even if it takes longer, even if it's more conversations to make sure that you're getting to the right person, rather than the fastest person or referral or your friendly friends.

Ryan Burgess
So maybe want to change gears a little bit here is like, so we've talked about a lot from the hiring perspective from the company side. But what about the candidate experience like titles like for saying on that it's like, it's so ambiguous, like, I know this from like, companies, everyone has different titles at different companies, they're all valued different, like, even for my own role a manager, like could mean many different things have so many different things to think about? How does a candidate navigate that like and understand the scope of a role?

Stacy London
I think one thing I've seen, I actually, just recently, someone reached out to me, and they're like, should I apply for this principal engineer role, or just a senior engineer role? Like, what's the difference at Atlassian? It was kind of like making reaching out to your connections to understand like, at that company, what does that mean, and like, because it is different, it's definitely defined differently at various places. Even if the title is the same, they could be doing very different things. So I think that's one good way.

Hillary Mager
And I think like some company, especially bigger companies, they may actually have a performance ladder, and a skills ladder. I know at Flatiron we had this, you know, we actually had a there were like levels one through seven. And if you're an IC engineer, there were levels and you could actually sit down with the hiring manager, and talk about what the performance expectations were at each one of those levels. And so when we would communicate, you know, offers to candidates, we would do this, you'd be like, Hey, you're being brought in at this level, here are the expectations at this level in terms of performance, here's what the next level looks like, here's what you have to do and earn, you know, to get to that next level. startups don't really have any of that, you know. And so I think that this, if you work at a big company, you tend to be armed with some of these questions. Because, you know, to ask, like, what is, you know, success look like at this level? How are you going to measure that? What does success look like at the next level? What's the timeline for me to get there? Right, I think these are the types of questions you'll be prepared to ask. I think also be comfortable with a little bit of ambiguity, right? And understanding that like, was earlier stage companies, it's kind of up to you to prove what level you're operating at a little bit. A couple of weeks back, I posted an article, I think it was called shapes. And it's about how when people are good performers or bad performers, it's about figuring out what is the empty space and like filling that in? And so I think that's part of the process, too, when you're, you know, being hired as saying, what's happening today? What's not happening today? How can I be performing really well by my job? How can I be performing more than just good at my job? How can I stretch outside the bounds and take things off your plate, et cetera, just be prepared to, you know, be on that ambiguous journey. But I do think asking, at least what their vision is, if they have one, what's the next level? What's that title? How do I get there? Do you have a sense of timeline, etc. Those are all important things.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. Like the even said about, like startups being ambiguous on that is like, I think to your point is there's tons of opportunity, typically, in startups where it's like, you can wear multiple hats, like you can stretch yourself to, to kind of grow to take on more. And I think that to me, is also something that as you're even in the company is asking, Where are gaps that I could help with and understand that so working with your manager, or team? Or maybe it's even a skip level asking like, I want to grow in this next way, like, what are things that I could take on? And there's likely a lot, there's always anytime I've been at a start up, it's like, yeah, you can, you can do way too many things. Like there's there's just tons. So

Chris Running
it definitely goes beyond the job description, and just asking the, what am I going to be spending my time on? I can tell you that I think that was one founder who will say, we're hiring head of engineering, of course, they need to be coding. They're the ones building the product. And then they're the ones hiring the engineers, how can they be respected engineering team if they're not building the product themselves? And he will talk to another founder who will say, of course, we don't need that engineering to be coded. Why would they be spending the time coding their head of engineering? And so it just goes back to asking like, what am I going to be spending my time on? What's the problem we need to solve and having those upfront conversations so expectations are clear.

Jem Young
So I guess better career advice. So let's say I'm on the market, I'm looking for a new role. I'm looking at small to midsize companies. Is it in my best interest to push for the highest, biggest title that I can or is it better to kind of like, well, here's a level I know I'm very comfortable operating at, even though it's likely I will probably be like, working beyond that. So like, say, I'm an engineering manager, but I'm setting the technical direction for the entire company. But you know, I don't want to go go to big. So yeah, what's the advice you have there?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. Are you looking for a new role? You know,

Hillary Mager
we're gonna talk, I think it depends a little bit, right. Like, I think it depends on your own self awareness of where your capabilities are. And so if you are in a role right now, and you feel really confident that you have the ability to operate at the next level, because you just you know, what the next level looks like, right. And you know, that, you know, that space, like an example, as a recruiter would be like, I'm an IC recruiter, I know, I can manage people, I've been playing that role for the past year, there's no opportunity where I am right now to manage people. But I know that I can do it, stretching for a manager role is not an unreasonable thing to do. Because you have competence, you know, yourself, you know, the role, you know, you can be successful there. It's a little bit of a risk, but I think it's a risk worth taking. Because if you don't, if you don't fight for yourself, like, you know, they're probably not going to fight for you. And listen, if they say, No, I think you should think about that, too. Right? Like, I don't think you should, you know, people should be like, Well, I'm not taking it because I'm not getting the title that I want. People should be thoughtful about the role and the fit and the moment in their life. But I also think, you know, the reverse is true, which is, you know, I was ahead of recruiting. And I did not think I was ready for a Chief People Officer role. You know, when I left flat iron, I just didn't think I had the knowledge. Could I have gotten a job like that? Yes, there are a lot of people that hire, you know, heads of TA into chief people, Officer roles, sometimes they're successful. But sometimes they're not, because HR and recruiting are not the same. And you're going, it's not a half click up, where you're adding, you know, one sort of thing to your pie that you can learn, it's a big step up. And if you're trying to get a much bigger role like that, I would say be really thoughtful as to whether or not you're really qualified, would you hire you to do that job? And if the answer is no, then I would say, you know, the don't chase it as aggressively because if you don't want to set yourself up to fail. Yeah, so anyway, not a clear answer. But that would be how I would think about it, I think

Ryan Burgess
you gave good advice, especially from the ICT manager, one, that is such a tough role. Like companies don't always have those opportunities, there's less of that, right. And I've seen that time and time again, with engineers wanting to move into management, it's not easy, it's like you kind of have to be the right place, right time. And if your company doesn't have that role, it might be the opportunity is like, go look somewhere else, and it sucks, because you are trying to get that. And there are companies that will take the bet where they do need that role. So I like your advice, or Hillary?

Chris Running
Another thing, I would just add Jeminus, who was in the role above? Like, is there the potential down the road? So for example, if you're going for a CTO role, and you're trying to push up for that title, maybe instead think about, like, you know, who am I reporting to? Is there are so maybe let me backtrack a little bit. Let's say it's a VP engineering role. And you'd maybe want that CTO title. I would instead maybe focus on asking the asking a leader, are you planning to hire for that role? Why or why not understand if it's up for grabs, and maybe you can grow into it? I think this is something that Hillary mentioned early on, instead of just fighting for the initially. Oftentimes, founders will tell us, we want to keep that open, like we're intentionally not hiring, that we will hire someone that can grow into it. But given our size of the stage, we're just not, we're not there yet. We don't need a CTO. But it's certainly up for grabs. So I think it's more about understanding what is the potential opportunity. And that would be where I would go as a as a candidate is like wanting to really understand that versus just fighting for the biggest title.

Ryan Burgess
Maybe the poach touched on that a little bit differently, Chris, is that sometimes like are at least me this is my own internal feeling is that sometimes you get promised those things, and they never happen. And so that is always like, I don't know, it's just definitely maybe it's like, you don't trust companies? I don't know what it is. But like, how do you avoid that too, right? Like, you know, I get it. It's like, they're not going to necessarily put you in that role. But oftentimes, you want to fight for the highest title, largest compensation, cheers. Because it doesn't, it doesn't change, right? Like it's hard to get that change once you're in there.

Chris Running
I think that's a very, very valid point. I would say look at the other people that work at the company. There are some companies that I can think of that have people that stay there. Netflix is a great example, and 15 years and you see people that have had that trajectory, right getting promoted, you can tell that the company invested in those people, that they're getting opportunities and they're satisfied on their job. So I knew we've got LinkedIn at the tip of our fingers, take a peek around and figure out what is the trajectory that other people in that company are the same for a long time have they had those opportunities? And do a little bit of of your homework I companies that kind of do the bait and switch approach if they really care it and don't follow through on it? Your talent sock? Mr. Winterton, they're gonna go seek those opportunities elsewhere.

Hillary Mager
The only thing I'll add to that, though, right? I think so I think it's, there's one thing you could do up front, which is have the conversation with your potential hiring manager and say, what is the potential timeline here? Right? Like, when would I be considered for this? And what would I have to do to get there, right, and just try to get some clear things on paper around what good looks like in your roll. Look, it looks like a next roll and how you get there. But I do think it has to be balanced with like, reading the room of the company. And understanding that promotions aren't just about people, they're about the company as well, right? Like, like we said, a 30 person company doesn't need a CTO, if your company is 30 people, and it doesn't grow and it's not growing. It's not the right time, even if the CEO said a year from now, it's not the right time to knock on their door and say, Hey, I'm ready for my title change now, because you told me a year, like they're gonna be like, Well, we haven't grown at all. And you know, we're all responsible for that. So let's focus on that. And when the company is successful, and there is a need for that, let's talk about it. So I think it's a balancing act of knowing what the timeline is, understanding whether that opportunity should exist, and when the right time to ask for it is, and if it is clearly the right time, they're opening up a CTO role, then saying, Hey, I'd like to be considered for this. And if they're not considering you for it, then Okay, tell me why. What's the feedback for me? What would I have to do in order to get their

Jem Young
pillar there, I think you've slipped in some really, really good advice there on if you're looking for growth, like you're looking to move to the next level, join a company that is growing quickly. And the opportunities will be there. If you're looking for, you know, a little more stability, like pretty pretty level field, adjoining maybe a more mature company where things are, you know, more more reasonable, and that, you know, they have their pros and cons. But I don't know, I don't know if that's what you meant to say. But that's, that's

Hillary Mager
I think that's 100%. Right. And people have to like, you know, especially what's going on with layoffs right now, people have to realize that promotions are not just made up things, right. Like, you don't just get it because you put your two years in, right. Like, there has to be a bigger scope, there has to be a need for that role. Listen, I think this is why we're seeing so many layoffs that companies like, you know, Mehta and and all these companies is because they're like, Well, the way to retain people is to keep giving them promotions, and it's like, but the job didn't change, and you're just giving in and now they're overpaid, you know, for their abilities, and so that you don't want that you don't want to have to be laid off, because you fought for a promotion that the company didn't need. And so I think just keeping an eye on the big picture, and to your point, if you want to grow fast, go to a company that's growing fast, right? Because promotions are not about just your performance, it's about that performance matching the timing of the company need.

Ryan Burgess
So I like all of that, actually, that you've said, and a lot of what we're maybe pointing to is that, like for startups, they're gonna have or hopefully have a lot of that growth, but they're, again, the business they have, they're hoping that it works out that way. And that there is that growth as a candidate? What are some questions to help determine, like the upsides, the stability, the growth of the company, because some of that, like, it's hard to know, even the founder or the CEO, or whoever you're talking to, they have that grand vision. But it is a bet at the end of the day it is. And so what are some things that a candidate can ask to try and maybe get a clearer, a little clearer picture of that.

Hillary Mager
So I think there's straightforward things, right. And then there's not straightforward things that I've learned, you know, the hard way. I think the straightforward things are like funding, revenue, burn rate, Tam, you know, these are kind of one on one things that everyone should know. And like, what was the value? If you're, if you're talking about equity understanding, like, what was the value at the last, you know, round of funding? And was that value reasonable? And what was that based on? And you know, was it was your funding done at the top of the market? And you know, is that going to take you 10 years to grow into, and just really understanding the financials of the business and then it listen, if you don't understand it, talk to friends. There are a lot of people in the startup world that do understand it. And so figure out what the questions are like these are some of them, but work with friends and mentors to get you know, these details LS because I think also you don't want to, you know, join a company that has a sexy valuation that is not real, isn't backed up by anything. And there's a lot of those right now. And then there's a secondary things which are like, culture retention, right? How many executives are staying and leaving? Even Glassdoor reviews, I think sometimes can be indicative of like company's success. If it's a revolving door, like it's going to be hard to be successful, right? That's a huge cost to a company. And then also like milestones, right? So it's not just about revenue today, but like, what are the milestones that you need to achieve in the next year to reach you know, these revenue targets? And what needs to happen at the company in order for those to happen? Is that within our control? Or was that is that in the markets control? Is that like a wish, or to achieve a little thing? And then the last thing, I think, that I learned, you know, watching a lot of these companies like, you know, better.com, and orchard, and even like, a lot of these crypto companies, which have just, you know, had these, these kind of crazy peaks and valleys, I think is like, what would be catastrophic for this company, what would have to happen, that would be a catastrophic financial event for this company. Because I think if you look back, some of it was predictable, like, oh, the housing market would have to turn well, the housing market is gonna turn at some point. And so those will be the other questions that I asked you. We're getting deep in one industry, like really understanding that industry and the trends of that industry and how that's going to impact the business. And then there's the who, like,

Chris Running
Who are you asking those questions to? You should? I think the obvious one is asking the leader who's hired you for this position, but especially for startups, ask the CEO or ask someone on the executive level, it'll depend on the role you're interviewing for, of course. And I think even you know, we didn't touch on this. But when we were talking about how to know the scope of the role and really assess for it, I think just looking at who's on the panel, and who they have talked to you towards the later stages will say a lot about the scope of the importance of the role. Many times it's not uncommon for candidates to ask to speak to a board member, why are you investing in this company? What do you see as the potential upside? What do you what would have to be catastrophic? If your binary this did not work out? So the diversity of the folks that you're asking these questions to as important outside folks that have a vested interest, internal folks, friends and people that are in the startup world, or are in big tech world would have or could be that also have their perceptual perspective,

Ryan Burgess
well said, lots of really good advice there to unpack. I think this whole episode is full of good advice for companies as well as candidates. I think, I would love to maybe just before we dive into pics of things that we enjoy to share, what are a couple from all of you? What's a piece of advice that you would share to someone who's in the market for looking for a new role? And really thinking about those titles? I know, we've already shared a lot. But what's one key piece of advice that you'd want to leave our listeners with,

Stacy London
I guess, in terms of engineers, when you're interviewing for roles, like I think Hillary, you mentioned some of these great business questions to ask. I mean, sometimes as an engineer, you just want to ask about the tech stacks, and, and all of that, but especially if you're interviewing for startups, or you know, that kind of fast paced growth place, like ask the business questions, because that will, you know, in this world of layoffs that we're in, and those those things really matter if your longevity of being somewhere,

Ryan Burgess
maybe I'll add on to that, Stacy, too, is that on the hiring side? It goes a long way to is having an engineer that's curious about the business and cares about that. That's a plus, like, they're, you're like, oh, wow, they're not just hung up on what the tech is they care about the business and want to understand that, because at the end of the day, it's, we're a business, right? Like we're trying to achieve something. And so if everyone's bought into that, and and wanting that, it's not like, Oh, hey, we're on the latest version of whatever framework that's hot out there, that that's cool, I get it. But it also if the business doesn't work, it doesn't matter. You can go write that cool tech anywhere. So could call up,

Jem Young
I will, I will triple down on this advice. A lot of engineers, myself included when I started was like, I'm a great coder, I'm good at solving problems, I should be moving up in terms of my title, a compensation, etc. But, you know, like you said, if I don't understand the business, then it it doesn't matter. And that's like, the biggest failure I've seen is people like to solve really hard problems. And they're like, why am I not getting promoted? And what, what's what's going on here? And it's like, it's a business, you you do something to make money, and you need to solve problems in the right area, otherwise, none of it matters. And that's such a big disconnect between the reality and what exists for engineers today. So yeah, great advice there.

Hillary Mager
This is sort of tangentially related and sort of digging in a little further on like questions to ask about the stability of the business because I think again, it goes back to like companies that are growing So is this company going to grow? is really understanding for startups specifically, when they plan to raise more money? I think that that people don't ask, they're like, Well, how much money do you have? And how much time do you have left? But like, are you planning to raise more money in a year from now? Right? Like, you're just you're not going to focus on that at all? Are you planning on raising money in the next three months? And what's the likelihood that that's going to happen? Are investors interested? You know, I think that a lot of people talk about raising money, but it's really important for startups that there's confidence around not being able to happen. And so digging into that, because, obviously, a lot more than just your level is going to be impacted, if that doesn't happen, but the rate of growth etc. And so, you know, it ties in with what Stacey saying, like, you have to understand the business, the trajectory and all of that, and understanding like, what's the short term here? You know, is there a short term plan for this company to continue its growth? And you know, what does that look like?

Chris Running
I think my advice would be just have more conversations with people be really open a lot of the connections even on this meeting, were men because we all took a conversation with someone or met someone at a conference that turned into something bigger. I met her years ago, and we kept in touch and that's how I ended up working with Sterling strand janitor. I have no YouTube but years ago as well. And so I think in this market where we look around and nothing is stable, you know, we look at big tech companies and they never thought we'd see be doing layoffs or layoffs. And then we see startups doing layoffs. You know, we also see a lot of companies growing so I think just take the conversation learn what's out there. You never know when doors gonna open.

Ryan Burgess
Well said always be networking. That's always a key thing. Great. Well, let's dive into pics. In each episode of the front end happier podcasts. We like to share pics of things that we found interesting and want to share with all of you sometimes related to the topic. Oftentimes not. Stacey, you want to start it off.

Stacy London
Sure. unrelated but always related to music for me. The pic is in the color red by underworld. It's been a favorite group of mine for a really long time. And it's a brand new check from them. Pretty bass heavy good for headphone listening. I'm going to see them tonight I'm gonna go to a concert, which is a very novel thing for me this pandemic time. So I'm going to be masked up. I don't want to get COVID But I'm very excited for that.

Ryan Burgess
Right on. Jim, what do you have for us?

Jem Young
Stacy? I had no idea underworld was still around. That's like, some high school listening for me. Still good. Still good. But man, that band has some longevity. I have one pick. It's a TV show pick. And it's not on Netflix on Disney. Plus, I know. I know, heresy. The pick is andorre. I never came out last year. But I'm pretty slick kids. Fantastic show like one of the few shows. I'm like, wow, I don't know what's gonna happen next. And just solid storyline, one of the better shows I've seen in a long time. So that's my pick

Ryan Burgess
right on Hillary, what do you have for us,

Hillary Mager
my pick is a cocktail bar in New York, that I went to recently, and it's an outdoor rooftop bar. Down in the financial district. It's called overstorey. It is amazing. The cocktails are spectacular. It's like the most incredible new york city views outdoor actually have heated seats if you want to go in the winter, but wouldn't recommend that. But it's really just such a cool bar. And I discovered it recently. And you know, a lot of those bars are just like super hard to get into or like impossible to get a reservation for in this place. You get there at the right time. You can like Wait 20 minutes and go up for a drink. And it's one of the better, like New York experiences I've had recently. So if you're in the city, I highly recommend overstorey in the financial district.

Ryan Burgess
I'm already adding it to my list for my next trip to New York. I love this. Chris, what do you have for us?

Chris Running
So I'm sure I'm gonna try on this one. I don't watch TV very often. So when I do, it's got to be good. And I really hooked so nine to 23 for me, and it's been amazing. I thought that Yellowstone was great. And then 93 was just even better set of way past my bedtime watching that. But it's incredible.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. I have one pic for us on this episode, which is another podcast. So if you have time from listening to front end, Happy Hour and feel like learning more about graffiti, which I think a lot of people know I still care pay attention to a lot of graffiti. There's a podcast called Angel and Z. I think it's based out of New York, but they they cover a ton of different graffiti writers across the US and other countries. They just have really good interviews. And I find them very interesting to hear just even from being so deep in tech all the time. It's cool to hear, like artists talking about even things that are related in their lives. And even hearing them talk about tech is really interesting as well. So I've just been listening to a few episodes here and there and found it really interesting. So that's my pick, Hilary and Chris, thank you so much for joining us on The Yep, so this was awesome topic, I really enjoyed learning a lot. Where can people get in touch with you

Hillary Mager
LinkedIn? You know, we're recruiters to LinkedIn is always a good place. But also, you know, via email, our emails are pretty straightforward. It just Hillary at thrilling strand.com or Chris at Sterling trend.com. You know, we're happy to we're happy to talk with folks that are, you know, hiring, we're also happy to talk with folks who are on the market, you know, I think it's, it's sort of rough times right now. And so, you know, if you need to talk, you need advice. Like we're really trying to, you know, open ourselves up to do as much of that as we can and you know, really help point people in a good direction.

Ryan Burgess
And thank you again, it was great talking with you both. And for our listeners, you can find us on Twitter at @frontendhh, we don't have LinkedIn. I don't think we need that. But you know, all of us are on LinkedIn individually, but in front end, happier not so much. You can find us at front end happy hour.com Any last words

Hillary Mager
happy hiring.

Ryan Burgess
Happy hiring loves us?